Should Sky Drakes get marksmanship?

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Should Sky Drakes get marksman?

No, they are perfect (as-is)
5
14%
Maybe just get stronger ranged / weaker melee
4
11%
Maybe just get a lower cost or more hp (leaving damage alone)
6
17%
Yes, marksman is the best idea. (60% of breath attacks hit, but not during defense)
12
34%
No, they have too much power and need to be reduced
0
No votes
Maybe just eliminate the unit or make it take the place of Drake Glider (to Hurricane Drake L2)
1
3%
No opinion or undecided
7
20%
 
Total votes: 35

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Sapient
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Should Sky Drakes get marksmanship?

Post by Sapient » February 15th, 2006, 6:18 pm

(Rehashing the arguments from previous threads)

Sky Drakes are easily the worst level 2 unit in the game.
player wrote:it qactually depends on how u used it. sky drake has 50% def. (its basically weak if not used well.
) and it has 3 impact attack also,
I don't claim to be a balancing expert or anything, but it doesn't take an expert to notice that level 2 sky drakes are worse than level 1 gryphon riders. The gryphon rider has better terrain defense. It get's 60% on mountains, and if you're a flying unit, it is very easy to end on a mountain.

Also, after taking a look at their damage resistances, gryphons have better net damage resistances. Even worse, sky drakes have a huge weakness to cold damage, which more than offsets (in my opinion) their fire resistance.

Resilient gryphon riders have more hp than a standard sky drake, however, perhaps the biggest advantage is the continued savings of gold and the ease of leveling up the gryphon if it kills the sky drake.
merry wrote:Dont forget, the sky drakes do have ranged. That means they can deal damage without taking any on their turn.
Personally I'd prefer if Sky Drakes had a powerful ranged attack rather than having to choose between two weak attacks. They would be far more useful that way: swoop in, do enough damage to finish off a unit, then fly away (assuming you manage to survive).
Cuyo Quiz wrote:The standing idea for the scout line of the Drakes is to give them marksman in ranged. Go claim it should ba added to an unstable version.
Good idea. Here's a poll in the appropriate forum to initiate the process.
player wrote:the problem on gryphon rider, it has no range and weak on impact. see my point now??or need more explanation???
Here is proof. I created an era where Sky Drakes cost 24 gold, the same price as Gryphon Riders.

Guess who wins, the level 2 units or the level 1 units?

(edit: BTW, this should be run under 1.1.0 if you want to view the replay. Not sure if it replays correctly in other versions.)

Attachment: air_wars.zip
Description: Are L1 Gryphon Riders better than L2 Sky Drakes, even if they both were to cost 24 gold? Watch and be amazed.
http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/User:Sapient... "Looks like your skills saved us again. Uh, well at least, they saved Soarin's apple pie."

toms
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Post by toms » February 15th, 2006, 6:28 pm

I want them stronger at melee and ranged, i don´t care in wich way, so I didn´t vote.

(Drakes are not my favorite race)
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JW
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Post by JW » February 15th, 2006, 6:53 pm

I suggest one of the following, or perhaps a combiniation of both:

:arrow: Increase Sky & Hurricane Drakes attacks
:arrow: Increase Sky & Hurricane Drakes hp

Since Drakes use high hp to offset their odd resistancies and high costs the scout line shouldn't be any different. Interestingly though, the drake scout line has the lowest hp and damage of all the main factions, excluding the Undead faction.

Drakes:
hp: 32,40,50
dmg: 12-9, 18-15, 24-24
Rebels:
hp: 32,46,57
dmg: 12-12, 21-18, 28-24
Northerners:
hp: 32,49,61
dmg: 15-0, 28-0, 36-0
Knalgans:
hp: 34,46
dmg: 24-0, 30-0
Loyalists:
hp: 38,53,68
dmg: 18-0, 28-15, 40-20

I imagine that if their hp was increased to at least comparable levels to the other level 2 & 3 units, the scout line would be more properly balanced to the rest of the similar units. Something like 32-46-58.

Alternatively, if their damage is increased to something like
7-3, 6-3 for the Sky and
10-3, 9-3 for the Hurricane Drake
then an hp increase may not need to be so dramatic, or even necessary at all.

Just thoughts.

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Post by Sapient » February 15th, 2006, 7:11 pm

toms wrote:I want them stronger at melee and ranged, i don´t care in wich way, so I didn´t vote.

(Drakes are not my favorite race)
Then just vote under the stronger ranged option; Your objection has been noted, but I can't remake the poll-- and that's the closest thing to your suggestion. (And I want to get a solid count of those who wish the drake to be buffed vs. no change or nerf)
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Tippsey
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Post by Tippsey » March 2nd, 2006, 9:13 pm

Actually I would prefer their resses changing myself. Sure they do have a weak attack but the glider has better resses by far then it and it's level 1. Let's do an old fashioned match up.

Glider Sky Drake
hp 32 42
move 8 9
6-2 impact tail 6-3
3-3 fire breath 5-3


10 blade 0
-50 cold -50
50 fire 50
20 holy 20
20 impact -20
-10 pierce -20

40 cas 1 50 1
20 snow 1 50 1
50 cave w - 50 -
40 chasm 1 50
40 Mgrove 2 30 1
20 swa 1 50 1
40 sand 1 50 1
40 village 1 50 1
40 forest 1 50 1
30 grass 1 50 1
40 hills 1 50 1
40 mountains 1 50 1
20 dwa 1 50 1
40 vil 1 50 1
30 cave 3 20 3
30 swamp 1 50 1


So we have here one of the only units to suddenly forget out to be resistant to things. Perhaps it hacks off it's scales as to become a sky drake it loses 40 res in impact alone! It swears it's the king of the skies when anyone can beat this buzzard to the ground. In all it loses 60 res so that it can gain some defense, one movement, 8 hp, some better attacks oh and yes become even worse in caves. So if we plan on heping this poor unit a look of it's defense may be more in order then more attack.
May the drakes bloody kill you all.

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JW
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Post by JW » March 3rd, 2006, 5:47 am

That is really odd...

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Post by Tippsey » March 4th, 2006, 7:14 pm

Gah it got rid of my spaces between the two.. but yes it is. Maybe they chop their hide apart.
May the drakes bloody kill you all.

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Cuyo Quiz
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Post by Cuyo Quiz » March 4th, 2006, 7:20 pm

I found that giving the Glider line 0 res does well for letting the Drakes fight vs Ghosts and Adepts. Maybe too well, but they are the ones with the bigger offset since they don't do much damage in tehir atatcks.

Maybe one Drake, perhaps one of the more armoured ones, should have a better res to Cold.
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toms
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Post by toms » March 5th, 2006, 5:30 am

Why not reduce the cost and make them a bit stronger so that they can becompared to other scouts? :wink:
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Tippsey
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Post by Tippsey » March 5th, 2006, 6:54 am

Well the problem isn't the glider it's the Sky drake so lowering the cost won't anything in normal games.
May the drakes bloody kill you all.

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irrevenant
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Post by irrevenant » March 5th, 2006, 9:27 am

Sapient wrote:Then just vote under the stronger ranged option; Your objection has been noted, but I can't remake the poll-- and that's the closest thing to your suggestion. (And I want to get a solid count of those who wish the drake to be buffed vs. no change or nerf)
Why can't you add the option to the poll? I had no problem editing my poll (by re-editing my initial post).

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Post by Sapient » March 5th, 2006, 2:01 pm

Once people start voting, it won't let you edit the poll. Or at least, that is my assumption, since it won't let me edit it.

Regardless, I think it has become clear that there is widespread support for increasing the sky drake in one way or another.
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rocinante
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Post by rocinante » March 8th, 2006, 11:46 pm

I'd have to go with more HP. This seems like it was meant to be a unit that was faster than the other drakes, and I have been using a tip on this board to just use Fighters instead since the movement cost is not much as they can also fly, and they can put up a fight against the other scouts.

also: since its resistances get worse when it levels that might violate riplib.
had not noticed that before. maybe 2-branch here, a stronger melee+ranged drake that can't advance past level 2 and keeps the resistances? the other drakes are getting near double their level 1 hp at level 3, the hurricane having 60 hp and the sky drake maybe 45 would give it a slight HP edge over the other scouts.

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Post by Motrax » July 10th, 2006, 3:46 am

accually u could weaken them even further and make them 0 lvl units - like bats for undead - only cheaper they are pretty much usless than for scouting/stealing villages (only on bigger maps) either way :P

or if u dont like that give them backstab ability :roll: :twisted:
Gryphon riders should look like gryphons with a dwarf on its back not a badger or dwarf in a canooe!

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Post by Sapient » July 10th, 2006, 5:16 am

From the Changelog
Version 1.5:
* Added marksmanship to the Drake Glider branch
* Hurrican and Sky Drakes now have same defense and movement costs on fungus and in caves like other drakes.
Version 1.1.3:
* fixed the resistances of the Sky Drake line
Version 1.1.2:
* increased HP of the Sky Drake from 40 to 45
* increased HP of the Hurricane Drake from 50 to 58
* increased resistances of the Sky Drake line to those of the Drake Glider


problem solved, thread locked
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