Should mermen be weak to fire?

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Should Mermen be weak to fire?

Yes, -20% sounds about right.
9
13%
Yes, but only -10%. Stop scaring me like that!
19
26%
Yes, but -40%. Nerf the heck out of those "sea salamis."
7
10%
No way! What are you a naga lover? (ewww)
26
36%
No, they should *better* resistance! Buahaha...
11
15%
 
Total votes: 72

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Sapient
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Should mermen be weak to fire?

Post by Sapient » December 10th, 2005, 10:18 am

Nagas are weak to ice, mermen are weak to... well, nothing. Considering their piercing attacks do great harm to drakes, it seems appropriate for them to have at least a slight weakness to fire-based attacks. Thus the trident that they receive in HttT would be great for ruling over their fellow mermen. :D

Granted, giving mermen a specific damage weakness would probably mean a slight increase in their overall HP or other resistances to compensate.

Also, if you place a vote, I would appreciate to hear your reasoning.

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Post by Cuyo Quiz » December 10th, 2005, 3:16 pm

AFAIK, Nagas are pound by pound more effective than the Mermen (Figters or otherwise), yet they cost the same. I would not like seeing the Mermen more downgraded, but i would like the cost of a Naga be upped by 1 gold.
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Post by ozymandias » December 10th, 2005, 6:00 pm

Who says they need a weakness to a specific damage type? After all, humans, elves, dwarfs and orcs don't have any (well, except the elusivefoots, but that's different).

And while Mermen are effective against drakes, they can be easily avoided on most maps. And anyway, it's not like the drakes needed the help...

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Post by turin » December 10th, 2005, 6:35 pm

Nagas are usable on both water and land, mermen are not.
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Post by Doc Paterson » December 10th, 2005, 7:41 pm

turin wrote:Nagas are usable on both water and land, mermen are not.
Why would you say that? Nagas move better over hills and forests, but their combat potential on land is very close to the Mermen's. Both are 30 % on grassland, and the Naga's HP is lower.

I'd say that they're both pretty terrible on land.
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Post by Doc Paterson » December 10th, 2005, 7:43 pm

Anyways, it wouldn't make much logical sense to have Mermen be weak to fire. Aren't they, after all, mostly submerged in water? :P
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Post by Sapient » December 11th, 2005, 3:30 am

Aren't they, after all, mostly submerged in water?
Yes but if you stick your face up out of the water and it gets hit by a fireball I don't think that matters. :)

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Post by Assasin » December 11th, 2005, 3:52 am

sure it does!!! They just dive right back in.


umm...can i take my yes vote back?
I speak what's on my mind.

Which is why nothing I say makes sense.

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Post by Sapient » December 11th, 2005, 4:09 am

Cuyo Quiz wrote:AFAIK, Nagas are pound by pound more effective than the Mermen (Figters or otherwise), yet they cost the same. I would not like seeing the Mermen more downgraded, but i would like the cost of a Naga be upped by 1 gold.
Ok, let's pit a merman against a naga on shallow water. Considering they are both water units this is the most likely opponent they will face, and the most likely terrain they will battle upon.

Merman Fighter
Cost: 14 gold
Shallow Water 60% defense
(Deep Water 50% defense)
HP: 36
normal attack 6*3 (18 dmg)
strong attack 7*3 (21 dmg)
Bonus: cold resistance 60%

Naga Fighter
Cost: [same]
Shallow Water: [same]
(Deep Water: [same])
HP: 33 [3 points lower]
normal attack 4*4 (16 dmg) [2 points lower]
strong attack 5*4 (20 dmg) [1 point lower]
Bonus: cold weakness -20% [80 points lower]

Looks to me that the typical merman will defeat the typical naga, as anyone who has played HttT can testify. (And the match-up against the merman hunter is even worse.)

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Post by Sapient » December 11th, 2005, 4:22 am

Assasin wrote:sure it does!!! They just dive right back in.


umm...can i take my yes vote back?
Ok, apparently I am fighting a losing battle here, but let me just keep beating the dead horse of my idea.

Remember, lightning type damage is currently rolled into fire. Given a choice between the two, of course it would make more sense to give mermen a lightning weakness. However, this would require new lightning units to be created or modifications to existing units.

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Post by yeahthatguy » December 11th, 2005, 5:07 am

Lightning isn't nearly as common as fire, though, so making them weak to fire just doesn't make sense in my mind.

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Post by JW » December 11th, 2005, 6:26 am

Why are nagas weak to cold in the first place?

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Post by Wevilspore » December 11th, 2005, 9:15 am

JW wrote:Why are nagas weak to cold in the first place?
Who knows, probably reasoned that if the Naga are snake-like then they are cold blooded.
Sapient wrote:Looks to me that the typical merman will defeat the typical naga, as anyone who has played HttT can testify. (And the match-up against the merman hunter is even worse.)
A couple of points you forgot in your analysis: chance and time.

Yes, the Merman will do more damage than the Naga... assuming that every shot hits. The Naga has advantage of numbers of attacks. This means that, over a long span of turns, the Naga will do more damage than the Merman.

The other point you neglected is the time factor. During the day, the Merman will kick the Nagas rear for sure. But at night, the Naga's neutrality will ensure it starts stomping the Merman. So, the Merman "weak" attack maximum will range from about 23 to a low of 14 while the Naga will always max out at 16. Now the "stronger" attack will reach a low of about 16 and surge up to a high of about 26 while the Naga will always be a reliable 20. Again, this is assuming that every blow lands. When facing hard to hit units, such as most Rebels and a few other odd units like the Orcish Assassin, number of attacks will be more valuable than maximum total damage possible. As anyone who favors the Dwarvish Thunderer can attest, yeah he might do a butt load of damage, but only if he can connect.

As for the proposal of a weakness to fire, or lightning as one person suggested, I would say their resistance should vary with terrain they occupy. In their native terrain where they can dive underwater, their resistance should be higher (electricity disperses in water which lowers the impact of that lightning bolt). On land, they should have lower resistance.

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Re: Should mermen be weak to fire?

Post by irrevenant » December 11th, 2005, 11:05 am

Sapient wrote:Nagas are weak to ice, mermen are weak to... well, nothing.
Mermen are weak to being on land. That's a pretty serious weakness. (Granted, other units have the inverse, but as almost all maps are land-centric...

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Post by ozymandias » December 11th, 2005, 12:05 pm

Also don't forget that nagas only need 30 xp to level, while merman fighters need 36. That is quite noticable when playing MP with lower XP settings.

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