Suggestion: leadership allows 0lvl units to enforce ZoC

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mowerpower
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Suggestion: leadership allows 0lvl units to enforce ZoC

Post by mowerpower »

Proposal: As it stands, 0 level units never enforce a Zone of Control (ZoC). Here, I propose that a 0 level unit does enforce a ZoC if it benefits from the leadership of an adjacent unit. Think of that Goblin Rouser shouting "Keep that spear pointed at the stinking human, pustule! Keep it pointed as he moves, or I'll stab you before he does..."

Why? This change would only benefit Northeners , so would need to be seen not to be imbalancing, but it would turn those Goblin units from units one is mostly wise not to recruit into ones that are more useful in a range of situations.

The proposal carries the downside of complicating the conditions under which ZoC applies, though I swear I don't understand the rules as they stand governing when mermen can ignore ZoCs...
Darth Jordius
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Post by Darth Jordius »

I love the idea, especially since the Northerners always seem to be considered the weakest faction. (How often do you see them in MP?) I think this would help a bit towards balancing them with the other factions.

And it's just a great idea period.

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thespaceinvader
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Post by thespaceinvader »

I think this can already be done, however i definitely wouldn't like to see ti affect the mainline leadership ability. As an ability of its own, it does have potential.
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mowerpower
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Post by mowerpower »

Thx for the support, and the welcome!

An afterthought: of course this also affects Loyalists in the campaigns, and there are a few sceniarios, where this rule would be advantagous.
deoxy
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Post by deoxy »

1. ZOC can be set manually in the creation of the unit type (that is, you can make L0 units with ZOC and L1+ units that have no ZOC).

2. It might be easier (and affect fewer things, balance-wise) to make a L0 unit that gains ZOC when affected by leadership than to try and change leadership.

3. It might also be easier to create an ability that looks and acts just like leadership, EXCEPT that it gives ZOC to L0 units (and put it on the Goblin Rouser, for instance). Go look in the Abilities. cfg file in your Wesnoth data folder, and not that Leadership as we know it is actually a fairly complicated construction of other things... which could be altered.
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Clonkinator
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Post by Clonkinator »

Darth Jordius wrote:(How often do you see them in MP?)
Quite often, actually. I sometimes also choose them myself. Imo they're well balanced... :?
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Noyga
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Post by Noyga »

It does complexify the rule, so it's less KISS than current ability.
A more KISS approach would be to split this new effect into a new ability.
Unfortunately it cannot current be implemented with WML in an aceptable way for mainline.

It is doable to implement it through WML, but it is tricky :
The leadership gives lvl0 zoc effect can be done through unit event that gives/remove zoc though an [object] if necessary everytime :
- a level 0 moves
- the unit with this ability moves
That kind of implementation should be avoided for mainline, because it can have quite a negative impact on the growth of the savefile...
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zookeeper
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Post by zookeeper »

Noyga wrote:That kind of implementation should be avoided for mainline, because it can have quite a negative impact on the growth of the savefile...
Not to mention the fact that it invalidates undo whenever one of those units moves, which is an absolute no-no.

EDIT: Whenever one of those units moves in a way which causes there to be a change.
IB
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Re: Suggestion: leadership allows 0lvl units to enforce ZoC

Post by IB »

mowerpower wrote:I swear I don't understand the rules as they stand governing when mermen can ignore ZoCs...
Huh?
Weeksy
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Post by Weeksy »

the rules are as such:

Mermen can't ignore ZOC's. Fencers, and other units with skirmisher can, but there aren't any mermen with skirmisher.
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mowerpower
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Abilities, code, balance and mermen

Post by mowerpower »

deoxy wrote:It might be easier (and affect fewer things, balance-wise) to make a L0 unit that gains ZOC when affected by leadership than to try and change leadership.
I'm not against this, but in default MP, there do seem to be a shortage of other units affected by this: undead have no leadership units, and while loyalist and elven units have some 0-lvl units in the campaigns, they are not recruitable in the MP game.

deoxy, Noyga, zookeeper: I take from this that the proposal would need changes to the C++ codebase to do it properly?

Darth Jordius & Clonkinator on Northener's strength: my proposal wasn't to strengthen a weak faction; rather it is to make possible a new strategy for them, one which I think will make them more interesting and versatile; namely by enabling a style of play based on the ability to most cheaply build melee ranks that limit the opponents room for maneuveur. It might imbalance them, I'm not the one to say, since I'm not very good at playing them. I'd love to hear from someone who is. If it doesn't imbalance them, I think it would enrich the default MP game.

IB, Weeksy: I had the idea that I'd seen the footprints of a merman warrior unit go through two watery ZoC tiles when looking at possible moves, but given the categorical noes here, I'll chalk it up to a campaign session that went on longer thyan my endurance.
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Re: Abilities, code, balance and mermen

Post by Darth Jordius »

mowerpower wrote:
deoxy wrote:It might be easier (and affect fewer things, balance-wise) to make a L0 unit that gains ZOC when affected by leadership than to try and change leadership.
I'm not against this, but in default MP, there do seem to be a shortage of other units affected by this: undead have no leadership units, and while loyalist and elven units have some 0-lvl units in the campaigns, they are not recruitable in the MP game.

Darth Jordius & Clonkinator on Northener's strength: my proposal wasn't to strengthen a weak faction; rather it is to make possible a new strategy for them, one which I think will make them more interesting and versatile; namely by enabling a style of play based on the ability to most cheaply build melee ranks that limit the opponents room for maneuveur. It might imbalance them, I'm not the one to say, since I'm not very good at playing them. I'd love to hear from someone who is. If it doesn't imbalance them, I think it would enrich the default MP game.
Actually, I totally support this idea, I was just saying that I believed in addition to making them more "interesting" and all that it would help to balance them a bit.
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deoxy
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Re: Abilities, code, balance and mermen

Post by deoxy »

mowerpower wrote:
deoxy wrote:It might be easier (and affect fewer things, balance-wise) to make a L0 unit that gains ZOC when affected by leadership than to try and change leadership.
deoxy, Noyga, zookeeper: I take from this that the proposal would need changes to the C++ codebase to do it properly?
To DO it? Almost assuredly not. To do it WELL? Almost assuredly. To do it "properly"? Depends on your definition.
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zookeeper
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Re: Abilities, code, balance and mermen

Post by zookeeper »

mowerpower wrote:deoxy, Noyga, zookeeper: I take from this that the proposal would need changes to the C++ codebase to do it properly?
Yes. I wouldn't know whether it'd be a trivial change or a complicated one, but I'd guess that it wouldn't be too hard. If you would manage to convince someone to actually do it, that is.

Actually, I did just think of a theoretically possible way of doing this in WML alone, but it'd be rather messy (provided that it'd work in the first place). Namely, giving the lvl0 units ZoC and an ability that gives skirmisher to adjacent enemies, unless the lvl0 unit is adjacent to a leadership unit. The effect should be that the leadership unit seemingly grants the lvl0 units ZoC.
Clonkinator
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Re: Abilities, code, balance and mermen

Post by Clonkinator »

zookeeper wrote:Actually, I did just think of a theoretically possible way of doing this in WML alone, but it'd be rather messy (provided that it'd work in the first place). Namely, giving the lvl0 units ZoC and an ability that gives skirmisher to adjacent enemies, unless the lvl0 unit is adjacent to a leadership unit. The effect should be that the leadership unit seemingly grants the lvl0 units ZoC.
I doubt that would work. :?
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