Drakes vs Mass Archers (Rebels) or Mass Spearman (Loyalist)

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Yogin
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Post by Yogin »

Mass anything is a poor strategy. If you're having trouble countering a mass-unit X strategy, the first thing you should think about is what is unit X's weak points? What are unit X's strong points? Then how can you exploit unit X's weak points? How can you obviate unit X's strong points?

Elvish Archer:
strengths: good ranged damage, pierce dmg, decent mobility, forests
weaknesses: low hp. slow in hills/mountains, neutral.

How to exploit weaknesses:
  • (1) low hp - easy to kill with strong attacks on moderate defense, eg. clasher @ day;
    (2) poor defense in hills/grass: force it onto these - how? make them assault you;
    (3) it's neutral; attack during your time of day.
How to obviate strengths:
  • (1) good ranged pierce damage: attack with melee, defend with range: when presenting a target to the elves, present a burner, not a clasher;
    (2) pierce: use saurians;
    (3) mobility: not really much of an issue - drakes have greater mobility - steal villages with gliders and saurians, since they both have even better mobility than archers. force the archers to go through hills/mountains to slow them down, or even better, to stop in grass;
    (4) forest: (a)attack with magical: augur @ night, gliders as finisher (b)attack with higher # of attacks for kills: not fighters, (c)lure out into the open: ignore forested areas, use your mobility to go around them.
Anyone wanna try this same exercise to figure out how to deal with mass spearmen?

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Xandria
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Post by Xandria »

Hm. You might want to press against spearmen at night, actually, because then, you're rarely at a risk of losing a drake, but can manage to kill a guy with a pointy stick with the aid of a sole augur, or a few decent burner hits.
The fight against human stupidity is endless, but we must never give it up.
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Big Papi
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Post by Big Papi »

Sapient wrote:Mass archers is a horrible strategy, even against drakes.
This man speaks true.
"He's bulletproof, as far as I’m concerned. Whether there’s a lefthander on the mound or a righthander on the mound, he beats us up pretty good." - Joe Torre

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Cruk Chawbunkle
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Post by Cruk Chawbunkle »

Cackfiend wrote:mass spearman is a horrible strategy too imo


but it seems to work pretty consistently :P
I reckon that there be workin, but it be workin on them there amachers an Elder Noobs as they likes to call em.

Post up them there replays or we ain't got nothing more to say about this here.
Ya'll can't step to this.

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Cackfiend
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Post by Cackfiend »

Yogin wrote:Mass anything is a poor strategy.

i appreciate you trying to help, but i find this really funny because when i played you, you massed dark adepts vs my drakes :P
in fact its the thing that made me think u weren't very good
"There's no love in fear." - Maynard James Keenan

I'm the guy who's responsible for 40% Gliders in all hexes... I can now die a happy man. =D

Velensk
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Post by Velensk »

One point, if one recruit is working because the enemy is not properly adapting then there is no reason to stop.

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Cackfiend
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Post by Cackfiend »

Velensk wrote:One point, if one recruit is working because the enemy is not properly adapting then there is no reason to stop.

and what exactly is the proper adaptation to mass spearman? (or archers)
"There's no love in fear." - Maynard James Keenan

I'm the guy who's responsible for 40% Gliders in all hexes... I can now die a happy man. =D

eyu100
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Post by eyu100 »

Cackfiend wrote:
Velensk wrote:One point, if one recruit is working because the enemy is not properly adapting then there is no reason to stop.

and what exactly is the proper adaptation to mass spearman? (or archers)
To mass spearmen, only recruit burners. To mass archers, only recruit fighters. You need to have Drake Flare as your leader. You stay out of range until daytime. You attack and kill as many units as possible and move more units in to cover the units up. (on the Blue River scenario, I killed the green leader from the river and fought upwards)

Yogin
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Post by Yogin »

Cackfiend wrote:
Yogin wrote:Mass anything is a poor strategy.

i appreciate you trying to help, but i find this really funny because when i played you, you massed dark adepts vs my drakes :P
in fact its the thing that made me think u weren't very good
Firstly, this has exactly zilch to do with my post. Ad hominem attacks are pointless. Secondly, I already admitted in another thread that I made myriad strategical errors in that game. Thirdly, and I only reveal this since you insist on pressing the matter, that was my first UD/drake game in about a year, and maybe my 3rd-5th Wesnoth game in the same year, and I clearly had forgotten quite a bit about how to deal with that specific matchup.

So, what do you think of the actual methodology of my first post? Or was it too difficult to attempt?
Last edited by Yogin on April 19th, 2007, 1:30 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Cackfiend
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Post by Cackfiend »

your "exercise" was so brilliant i cannot begin to comprehend it =[

i mean, you took pure logic of strengths and weaknesses and thought of the best counter to them... GENIUS!

why didnt i think of this? =[

btw u didnt actually say what was best vs mass spearman or mass archers...



and all burners get destroyed against all spearman, especially during the day.
"There's no love in fear." - Maynard James Keenan

I'm the guy who's responsible for 40% Gliders in all hexes... I can now die a happy man. =D

Yogin
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Post by Yogin »

Cackfiend wrote:your "exercise" was so brilliant i cannot begin to comprehend it =[

i mean, you took pure logic of strengths and weaknesses and thought of the best counter to them... GENIUS!

why didnt i think of this? =[

btw u didnt actually say what was best vs mass spearman or mass archers...
Your sarcasm is dripped on so strongly, it reveals veracity.

Btw, I did give suggestions vs. mass archers, clearly delineated in 7 points. What among those 7 points did you not understand?


=================================================
EDIT: I decided to repost the relevant quote, with the actual suggestions bolded below.
Yogin wrote: How to exploit weaknesses:

(1) low hp - easy to kill with strong attacks on moderate defense, eg. clasher @ day;
(2) poor defense in hills/grass: force them onto these - how? make them assault you;
(3) it's neutral; attack during your time of day.


How to obviate strengths:

(1) good ranged pierce damage: attack with melee, defend with range: when presenting a target to the elves, present a burner, not a clasher;
(2) pierce: use saurians;
(3) mobility: not really much of an issue - drakes have greater mobility - steal villages with gliders and saurians, since they both have even better mobility than archers. force the archers to go through hills/mountains to slow them down, or even better, to stop in grass;
(4) forest: (a)attack with magical: augur @ night, gliders as finisher (b)attack with higher # of attacks for kills: not fighters, (c)lure out into the open: ignore forested areas, use your mobility to go around them.
I hope this is easier to read with the bold.
Last edited by Yogin on April 19th, 2007, 1:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

commanderkeen
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Post by commanderkeen »

Could everyone be nice to one another?

Debates are fine, but being mean? condescending? I think that's going too far.

Yogin
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Post by Yogin »

commanderkeen wrote:Could everyone be nice to one another?

Debates are fine, but being mean? condescending? I think that's going too far.
Agreed. Condescending comments about intellectual laziness removed. I just get frustrated when people don't actually bother to read and understand a post prior to hitting the reply button.

Tony Almeida
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Post by Tony Almeida »

Yogin wrote: I just get frustrated when people don't actually bother to read and understand a post prior to hitting the reply button.
Don't let the dunces get to you. They're really not worth anyone's effort.
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Cackfiend
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Post by Cackfiend »

Yogin is the guy who in two of my threads has started with the sarcastic and condescending remarks, i only have replied to them.


and yes i read your "7 points", too bad theyre wrong
"There's no love in fear." - Maynard James Keenan

I'm the guy who's responsible for 40% Gliders in all hexes... I can now die a happy man. =D

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