Problems with drakes

Share and discuss strategies for playing the game, and get help and tips from other players.

Moderator: Forum Moderators

Gun der Stick
Posts: 5
Joined: February 19th, 2007, 9:50 pm
Location: Moscow

Problems with drakes

Post by Gun der Stick »

I feel that I can't solve this problems myself. Every time drakes on random make me think of restarting game. Seriously, I got a lot of hotseat and online games with them, but really no way. Often it's hard to say what was made wrong.
Usually I lose while playing too agressive - trying to do maximum damage at day sometimes causes big casaulties in my own army. Leader, widely used in other factions, is useless due to his fragilesness.

Main problem - Isar's Cross. Expirience told me that recruiting saurians at first turn is definately best idea. First day lasts in taking villiages and at night dragons are slaughtered even they manage to take someone out until sun goes down. Saurians can hold position in center and augurs become priceless at night. Before dawn I take some dragons according to opponent's units. But I still lose, cause two piercing units take off any dragon in two turns even at day (I say two units cause usually try to build a line with my ally). And there is no place to hide planning strikeback on Isar. Seem to perform more effectively while using saurians even at day.

On big maps dragonplaying is a bit easier. But I'm too clumsy in villiage harrassment that seems to be best tactic because of high speed.

I'd like to see some replays (against human, not AI!), most wanted:
D vs Undead (especially on IC)
D vs Loyalist (yes, still actual theme - D vs Pikeman...)
User avatar
TheChosenOne
Posts: 245
Joined: April 7th, 2006, 8:26 am
Location: Royal Palace, Weldyn St. 01, Wesnoth 123 456

Post by TheChosenOne »

Drakes are at a disadvantage at small maps, especially Isar's Cross. This is because they have mobility, but low defense (which makes them good in large maps)

Drake vs Undead is perhaps the most interesting match you'll ever see. Drake fire vs Undead cold. Both deal incredibly high damage in their respective day and night.

Wanna know how to beat a human with drake? Avoid those spearmen. They hurt. You cannot afford to be caught in an all-out war with spearmen, because they're cheaper than your units and they'll have numerical advantage (if they spam spearmen). IMO if you face a pikeman, burn him with a burner and finish him with a clasher (hope it works).
Numbers do not win a battle
---Konrad III
(A loyal member of the pro-loyalists)

Would you like to translate the Battle of Wesnoth into Indonesian? Then come and join us at http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/IndonesianTranslation
Velensk
Multiplayer Contributor
Posts: 3991
Joined: January 24th, 2007, 12:56 am

Post by Velensk »

Or use sauians
User avatar
TheChosenOne
Posts: 245
Joined: April 7th, 2006, 8:26 am
Location: Royal Palace, Weldyn St. 01, Wesnoth 123 456

Post by TheChosenOne »

Velensk wrote:Or use sauians
Saurians are fine against loyalists if used correctly. However, don't forget that they are fragile, too, and are especially weak to mage fire.
Numbers do not win a battle
---Konrad III
(A loyal member of the pro-loyalists)

Would you like to translate the Battle of Wesnoth into Indonesian? Then come and join us at http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/IndonesianTranslation
User avatar
Konrad II
Posts: 296
Joined: December 21st, 2004, 1:03 am

Post by Konrad II »

For the loyalists, this might be the thread you may want to check
http://giantitp.com

"I have 8 forums, soon to be 7!" - Troy
Yogibear
Retired Developer
Posts: 1086
Joined: September 16th, 2005, 5:44 am
Location: Hamburg, Germany

Post by Yogibear »

TheChosenOne wrote:Wanna know how to beat a human with drake? Avoid those spearmen. They hurt.
I'd really love to see how to avoid any unit on isar's cross. I mean it takes them like two turns and they are right in front of your keep :shock: .

My advice would be clashers, saurians and augurs. And by any chance make those spearmen walk onto grassland or worse terrain. Then you fight them eye to eye and they will learn that drakes hurt, too (and that saurians can be a real pain :twisted: ).
Smart persons learn out of their mistakes, wise persons learn out of others mistakes!
Kalis
Posts: 199
Joined: February 3rd, 2007, 1:51 am
Location: Toronto

Post by Kalis »

After the discussion on the thread Konrad mentioned, Drakes became my favourite race :D

Here's the main rule I learned about playing them:
Drakes MUST hit first and in a massed force, and your hit MUST kill 1 or 2 units. This is because after your engage, you will definitely lose units because of the 30 or 40% defense, and low hit point saurians (even if they have 60%).

They're very much about attrition battles, and part of the fun is managing the attrition to make sure you're on top :D

Here was a knalgan/drake vs loyalist/UD isar's cross game. My basic strategy was:
1. Hide behind the knalgans so he takes all the hits (that's how you avoid hits Yogi hehe)
2. Shift my troops to fight the loyalists, while a splinter force fights with and defends my king.

When he left, I was at 7 losses 10 kills. My knalgan ally was at a much better rate of exchange, with something like 4 losses 8-9 kills.
I wish I had a better film where the opponent went for massed spears, but this is the best I could come up with.
Attachments
4p_-_Isar's_Cross_replay_drake_win.zip
(16.12 KiB) Downloaded 192 times
Last edited by Kalis on March 9th, 2007, 4:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Konrad II
Posts: 296
Joined: December 21st, 2004, 1:03 am

Post by Konrad II »

One thing I like doing on Isar's as Drakes vs Loys is turn between Clashers and Saurians. Put up Clashers during day, then saurians at night and eventually push or just resist in the center. What's a really bad sight is when your opponent's leader is a pikeman... It's just horrible, he can take down any of your units instantly besides saurians which still take an awful lot of damage.

I don't know if my "turning" between saurians and drakes on isar's against loys is that much of a good idea, and your opinions about it are welcome, too.

EDIT: answering to Kalis : Wasn't your Knalgan ally having some trouble on the UD side, though?
http://giantitp.com

"I have 8 forums, soon to be 7!" - Troy
Kalis
Posts: 199
Joined: February 3rd, 2007, 1:51 am
Location: Toronto

Post by Kalis »

Konrad:
personally, I prefer augurs on Isar's. 6-3 with 70% to hit at night and no damage taken is very handy on wiping out spearmen. And during the day 4-3 with 70% still isn't that bad either.

I also like burners more than clashers during the day for the same reason. Take little damage, and you dish out a nasty 8-4.

EDIT:
answering to Konrad, nope.
I used my burners against the undead, and his fighters would finish them off with the nice impact attack they have.
Once the initial wave of skellies was dead, ulfserker would kill off adepts, etc.

The film is interesting in that in that top (dwarf) fought bottom (UD), and left (loyalist) fought right (drakes). And that happened in large part because of drake mobility.
Last edited by Kalis on March 9th, 2007, 4:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Konrad II
Posts: 296
Joined: December 21st, 2004, 1:03 am

Post by Konrad II »

Kalis wrote:Konrad:
personally, I prefer augurs on Isar's. 6-3 with 70% to hit at night and no damage taken is very handy on wiping out spearmen. And during the day 4-3 with 70% still isn't that bad either.

I also like burners more than clashers during the day for the same reason. Take little damage, and you dish out a nasty 8-4.
Little? :P then you are very well covered by other units, because else you won't have the time to use the nasty 8-4

Btw, what do you mean with augurs? I said i turned saurians, which means I also recruit at least 1 augur for support
http://giantitp.com

"I have 8 forums, soon to be 7!" - Troy
Kalis
Posts: 199
Joined: February 3rd, 2007, 1:51 am
Location: Toronto

Post by Kalis »

Konrad:
Well with drakes, you should always be the first to engage :P. In the film above, I did it by hiding behind the knalgan.

Now, after the engage, I have no doubt the burner is dead.
But if you get the initial hit. You would generally get a chance to kill at least 1 enemy unit.
In addition, by focus attacking the burner with 2-3 units, all your other units are now available to smash them in return :)

As for augurs... you need to take advantage of them.
I will always have 2 augurs with 1 skirmisher ready at nighttime for an instant strike.
This means you get a combined attack of 6-6 at 70%, and a 5-4 or 6-4 skirmisher.
in any normal game, those 3 attacks will instant-kill any enemy unit you want.

Which is much less risky than using 2 skirmishers with 1 augur, which is a 6-3 at 70% and 40% to hit with 5-8, 6-8, or 5-4 & 6-4. You take less damage too since your first target will 100% be some sort of melee fighter.

The problem with using skirmishers is that they can take a lot of retaliation damage, which can instantly lead to you losing BOTH skirmishers when it's their turn.

The other thing with drakes is the matter of attrition :)
The smaller the scale of the battle, the better burners and gladiators are.
Taking Isar's, the first 6-7 turns will lead to so much attrition that you will probably have lost 7 units, but taken out 6-8 units as well.
At this point, you probably have 3-4 units, and your opponent has the same. This is when you pull away with the victory, since you will have much greater mobility and get to choose when to engage, and your initial strike will definitely take out 1 enemy unit which turns it into a 3v4, which turns the whole battle in your favour :D
Last edited by Kalis on March 9th, 2007, 4:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Konrad II
Posts: 296
Joined: December 21st, 2004, 1:03 am

Post by Konrad II »

Kalis wrote:Which is much less risky than using 2 skirmishers with 1 augur, which is a 6-3 at 70% and 5-8 or 6-8 or 5-4 + 6-4. You take less damage too since your first target will 100% be some sort of melee fighter
What? :D

I can't really be first to engage on Isar's, I have to grab my own villages, kill the [censored] merman that comes to my village(eventually), and even if I don't, I get to the keep hex easily before the loyalists, who then rush my drakes(they rush from bad terrain, considering terrain around the Left keep hex on Isar's). I don't think there was a way for me to "strike first" on that game I did(what I'm saying is only examples taken from this game, tbh), because the loyalist, when I went on the keep hex on my 2nd or maybe 3rd turn, rushed me with his 3 / 4 spearmen.
Kalis wrote:in any normal game, those 3 attacks will instant-kill any enemy unit you want.
Yeah, probably, but if you recruit 2 augurs and 1 skirmisher on Isar's you've lost already 51 GP. Next thing you can recruit is either 1 more augur, 1 more skirmisher, 1 more clasher or fighter or burner, and most probably another unit 2 turns after.

Imo with this even if you're going to push(at start), you aren't going to go far on Isar's, especially if your opponent recruited a mage on his first turn because of randomness factor.

Btw, you got 2 augurs and 1 skirmisher ready, not at your first turn, but during the game right? Because I don't imagine this to be really effective against an undead opponent you didn't know about because of randomness ;) I will have to try a full saurian / little drake game for loyalists, and it would probably work, but atm I'm talking about the "turning" thing I mentioned in my 2nd post : is this a valid tactic?

On my initial recruit with drakes I usually recruit 1 Clasher, 1 augur, 1 skirmisher, and 1 burner(on Isar's), against a random opponent. if I discover a loy I usually get an augur, skirmisher, or clasher in addition to my current army.
Kalis wrote:The other thing with drakes is the matter of attrition
The smaller the scale of the battle, the better burners and gladiators are.
Taking Isar's, the first 6-7 turns will lead to so much attrition that you will probably have lost 7 units, but taken out 6-8 units as well.
At this point, you probably have 3-4 units, and your opponent has the same. This is when you pull away with the victory, since you will have much greater mobility and get to choose when to engage, and your initial strike will definitely take out 1 enemy unit which turns it into a 3v4, which turns the whole battle in your favour
I agree with this, however, somehow, even doing this (with saurians mixed in, of course) I ended up totally owned very fast on this last game... I'm not sure if thats a good example tho, cause my opponent had some pretty insane luck... (250 EV taken, 350 taken, 300 inflicted EV 250 inflicted (random numbers, btw, but the difference between EV and real damage was that much)
Last edited by Konrad II on March 9th, 2007, 4:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
http://giantitp.com

"I have 8 forums, soon to be 7!" - Troy
Kalis
Posts: 199
Joined: February 3rd, 2007, 1:51 am
Location: Toronto

Post by Kalis »

konrad:
what I meant was for nighttime :)

most people, for first watch, will have 2 skirmishers 1 augur.
I will have 2 augurs 1 skirmisher.

I do the same initial recruit, I just follow-up a bit differently than most people, that's all. I find augurs are underrated by most people :)
User avatar
Konrad II
Posts: 296
Joined: December 21st, 2004, 1:03 am

Post by Konrad II »

Kalis wrote:konrad:
what I meant was for nighttime :)

most people, for first watch, will have 2 skirmishers 1 augur.
I will have 2 augurs 1 skirmisher.

I do the same initial recruit, I just follow-up a bit differently than most people, that's all. I find augurs are underrated by most people :)
Right, well if I want to discuss this more I will have to do more games drakes vs loys, because I don't think this game I had is a good example at all because of the incredible luck factor
http://giantitp.com

"I have 8 forums, soon to be 7!" - Troy
Kalis
Posts: 199
Joined: February 3rd, 2007, 1:51 am
Location: Toronto

Post by Kalis »

Ya just raising it up as something worth trying.
it's the choice between 5-4 (and melee retaliation) with 40% to hit, or 6-3 with 70% to hit (and ranged retaliation - which most units don't have).

The average damage is generally higher, and you take little/no damage in return.
Post Reply