thespaceinvader's portraits - Ancient Wose

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Captain Swing
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Re: thespaceinvader's portraits - current, Dwarves

Post by Captain Swing »

thespaceinvader wrote:I'll try for some slightly chubbier wrinkles. but as I've said before, I don't intend that the dwarvish body structure is fat - they are the shape they are because of their bones and organs, not because they have excess fat.

How exactly do you suggest making the beard follow the body shape more? I've done what I can with it.
{Note: I know I haven't been around in a while, and hopefully I will be about more shortly - with some drawings. I've been painting dog portraits (don't ask) and haven't had any time to draw unshriven spirits and what not. I don't mean to come back so catty seeming, but spaceinvader, I like your work and think it can go further}

I want to suggest a couple things here. While your anatomy is improving greatly (even since a couple months ago), you should really listen to Kitty. Beyond any editor status, she is a very very good artist, especially at portraits, and what she's telling you here is anatomically true (just as she pushed me about skulls a while back). Kitty has a better grasp at anatomy then most everyone here, me absolutely included, and when she and others comment on something it's worth figuring out what they mean. On both the issues above she's right - annoyingly so perhaps, as you've painting a lovely beard and face, that might have to be redone to fix.

A. Chubby body, skinny face. Here Kitty is correct, one my justify a different look to a degree with references to fantastic anatomy, but what matters most is how the painting looks to the casual eye. In this case the face and body don't match. If they do match we have one very out of shape looking dwarf with a skinny upper body and big pot belly. Hardly the robust heavy set image you've successfully conveyed in the other dwarves. If this guy is older and thinner, he's old and thinner and his belly should reflect that. I'd suggest (based on his big arms) that he needs some chest muscle instead, and a chubbier face - jowls perhaps to give the appearance of age?

B. The beard - this goes with the first issue, while I see why you have the beard hanging straight down, resting only against his body at its bottom, this means that the dwarf's head is pushed far out on a very bent neck, yet body posture is a more relaxed backward lean. I can't sketch this position without making him look tortured. If the head is craned forward, the chin should be tucked in looking down a bit, and the beard flare out then follow the contours of the chest rising once over the pectorals and again at the belly. I can only suggest that you try to sketch where the neck is and then review the angle of the head.

I don't mean to be super critical, it's a nice portrait and coming along - I love the right arm for example, but try sketching the underlaying anatomy over a print out of the fellow and it might help recognize what Kitty means, what could be done - keep pushing your skills. If you want I may be able to put up a sketch of what I mean on Monday. Along with a new wraith sketch, in a better pose that doesn't focus on his empty face. I will also try my hand at the other ghosts to give you something a bit less tortured/more dynamic to work with if you like.

...Swing
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Turuk
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Re: thespaceinvader's portraits - current, Dwarves

Post by Turuk »

I'm going to butt in on this.

Thespaceinvader has reasons based on his interpretation of the character as to why he is drawing the dwarf the way he is, and so he is entitled to have his own opinion. Kitty's word is not the law inviolate that dictates exactly how everyone should draw everything all the time. Technically, she is a very accomplished artist, and her critique is well-valued and appreciated, but having the most skill does not mean you have the sole right to rule on how others convey their interpretations.

Also, your critique not only is either a repetition of what she said already, you have posted suggestions that blatantly ignore the explanation that TSI has been giving on why certain parts of the portrait are the way that they are. If you cannot come up with original comments, please do not post what Kitty has already said just to make her point yet again, which you even noted you are doing in your post.

Your whole little bit on how TSI should listen to kitty is rude, presumptuous, and unnecessary. They have worked together long enough now that any discussion over details, corrections or tweaks can be left to them. Kitty does not need you to reiterate what she says and act as the enforcer to make sure artists follow it.
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kitty
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Re: thespaceinvader's portraits - current, Dwarves

Post by kitty »

If it comes to the stage where we're still picking nits and the release is pending, I'll commit at whatever stage we've reached and make any further changes to trunk after 1.6.
No. We won't put unfinished artwork into wesnoth. None is always better than unprofessional, unfinished, inconsistent etc.

But you still have time and you'll get him done duly ;)



The magic fx work fine now. That the plates on his chest are armour doesn't really get clear enough for me, you can leave them as they are but a new layout for them would be good for the picture and shouldn't be much work, too.

Concerning the dwarvish body structure, i know that you don't want the enormous belly be read as fat, but you can't just say that this guy isn't well-fed and expect the viewer to understand this. If you want this to be the dwarvish version of skinny, it would show in other places as the face as well, e.g. the arms should be really thin etc.

I think making the beard follow the body shouldn't be as hard as groovy describes if we take into consideration that the guy isn't shown totally straight ahead but slightly turned to the side - see orange line (exaggerated, but you get the idea).
Regarding the face I still see some issues, which I tried to adress in the little over paint: the transition of beard and skin still needs some work, it is too harsh now. The wrinkle extending from the nostrils down doesn't curve around the cheekbones but leads downwards to the corners of the mouth. I suggest thining his lower lip out to make it fitting the rest of the face. Some darker shadows to the left side of the face to add more definition.
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thespaceinvader
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Re: thespaceinvader's portraits - current, Dwarves

Post by thespaceinvader »

Thanks. Hopefully this is an improvement. I'd call him done now.
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Re: thespaceinvader's portraits - current, Dwarves

Post by kitty »

yep. put him in.
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thespaceinvader
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Re: thespaceinvader's portraits - current, Dwarves

Post by thespaceinvader »

Committed, then. Thanks. I'll track down the places it's used in campaigns and wire it in there in a separate commit.
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JW
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Re: thespaceinvader's portraits - current, Dwarves

Post by JW »

I don't understand what is going on with the brown lines going over the chainmail...
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thespaceinvader
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Re: thespaceinvader's portraits - current, Dwarves

Post by thespaceinvader »

Decoration. He's either got chainmail that's made with varicoloured rings, or painted/enamelled, depending on what works for you...
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Sgt. Groovy
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Re: thespaceinvader's portraits - current, Dwarves

Post by Sgt. Groovy »

kitty wrote:I think making the beard follow the body shouldn't be as hard as groovy describes if we take into consideration that the guy isn't shown totally straight ahead but slightly turned to the side - see orange line (exaggerated, but you get the idea).
Even though it's already comitted, I must point out one thing you overlooked: Even though the the body is seen from an angle, the head is seen from pretty much straight ahead. As the beard is attached to the head, not to the body, it should follow the head when the head is turned. Ergo, the beard should be seen from the same angle as the head, just pushed outwards by the body.

But I guess we can't expect such eclectic expertise in matters of facial hair, sice you don't have any of your own. :P :P
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Captain Swing
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Re: thespaceinvader's portraits - current, Dwarves

Post by Captain Swing »

Turuk wrote:Also, your critique not only is either a repetition of what she said already, you have posted suggestions that blatantly ignore the explanation that TSI has been giving on why certain parts of the portrait are the way that they are. If you cannot come up with original comments, please do not post what Kitty has already said just to make her point yet again, which you even noted you are doing in your post.

Your whole little bit on how TSI should listen to kitty is rude, presumptuous, and unnecessary. They have worked together long enough now that any discussion over details, corrections or tweaks can be left to them. Kitty does not need you to reiterate what she says and act as the enforcer to make sure artists follow it.
My sincere apologies, I will have nothing but the deepest respect for TSI's work, and person and hope no one took offense at my comments, I will limit any further posting to my own work.

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Mica
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Re: thespaceinvader's portraits - current, Dwarves

Post by Mica »

Wow, these are so much better than before! I'm glad you kept working at it! The game has become so advanced... I'm so excited!
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Re: thespaceinvader's portraits - current, Dwarves

Post by thespaceinvader »

Something new for the summer, now that I've finished my last assignment.

Wose - aimed to be more along the lines of Elder/Ancient, but fitting for all levels apart from sapling.

In terms of concept, I'm going for something really not very humanoid - more of a tree bending its branches than a humanoid with bark. Think huorns rather than ents, if you know your Tolkien. I've included the little squirrel there to give a sense of scale (though I'm open to using something a little less cute and cuddly), and tried to give a sense of looking at it from beneath a little.

I've also aimed to give it almost a crown made of small branches and leaves, and made the hands more branch or root-like than anything else.

I might think about doing something a bit more interesting than just leaves for the top, too. Maybe some fruit or something...
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Re: thespaceinvader's portraits - Wose concept

Post by kitty »

Good to see you alive again - I envy you already being free from uni stuff!

I like a non-humanoid approch to the wose very much!
Just make sure to look at some real twigs and roots and branches - the ones you use at the moment look rather symbolic. (And the broken one is pretty phallic positioned :P )
If this guy works will mainly depend on your rendering of the crown...
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Re: thespaceinvader's portraits - Wose concept

Post by thespaceinvader »

Yeah, I did notice it looking a little... interestingly positioned... myself. I'll either find a better place for it, or remove it altogether. And yeah, the linework will be properly reworked tomorrow - this is more proof of concept than anything.
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Re: thespaceinvader's portraits - Wose concept

Post by Turuk »

thespaceinvader wrote:Maybe some fruit or something...
Apples, so he can throw them like from the Wizard of Oz....
thespaceinvader wrote:(though I'm open to using something a little less cute and cuddly),
Angry squirrel, lots of teeth, and have him gnawing on the branches. Think attack squirrel, with a suitable facial expression.
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