Cool game, but not great. Here's why. (Please debate)

General feedback and discussion of the game.

Moderator: Forum Moderators

User avatar
Des
Posts: 116
Joined: November 7th, 2007, 7:58 am
Contact:

Cool game, but not great. Here's why. (Please debate)

Post by Des »

I've only played this game for a week, but I've played it constantly. It is very addictive and packs quite the punch for a free game. But I'm hesitant to call it a great game for a few reasons. I want to call it a great game, I really do. It has a lot going for it.

And if you disagree or find something wrong in here, please reply because I really hope I'm wrong. I've already admitted that I've been playing for merely a week.

I'll start with the gameplay, since that's my biggest gripe. Keep in mind that i'm looking at this from a multiplayer perspective.

What I've noticed with the gameplay is that overall, it is wholly advantageous for players to play defensively. (Attached is a replay that shows this). Due to this, multiplayer games seem to never end, especially when its more than just 1v1. Then you have the problem of people never finishing games...games which a good amount of time was invested in; it would be nice to see the result of that, instead of people leaving.

But I mean, on the flip coin, I wouldn't want this game to be just about mindless offense either. I like the fact that you have to really think about where to place each unit, and whether or not to attack.

It's just that... having defense #1 tends to make games...very....slow....

That being said, I question the Drake race. Don't they mess with the game's focus of ZoC and getting to certain tiles for their chance to hit bonus? I'm not stating they are overpowered. I'm just calling into question why most of the units of a single race get to fly around, enabling them to easily reach tiles with low hit percentage- a critical part of the game.



Generally though, here are the strengths and weakness of the game:


Strengths:

-Simple concepts like chance to hit, experience, etc...
-6 races add variety
-Multiplayer adds tons of replay value
-It's open-sourceness adds another ton of replay value
-Built-in way of getting user made content
-Free...which means it costs nothing for friends to hop on too.
-I love the tutorial and the Orcish Incursion as a way to initially learn the game.

Weaknesses:

- Cheating doesn't seem all that difficult...
- Out of game menus tend to freeze up a bit before changing screens.
- Campaign storylines are kinda bland.
- I'm not sure how many songs there are, but it seems like one of them only play when I'm in a game. Just gets kinda repetitive. Is there a way to make the game play a custom rotation of outside songs?
- Buddy list is quirky

I kinda wish there were stats like in Warcraft 3 or Starcraft...but then again, there would be more of a reason to cheat, which the game doesn't have a handle on yet.


Please reply back with any comments.
Attachments
Clash 2v2 multiplayer.zip
Notice how the west side seems like they should win because they smother the east side...but don't because the east side plays defensive (their recruits get their faster/they guard villages).
(53.33 KiB) Downloaded 127 times
Last edited by Des on November 9th, 2007, 4:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
joshudson
Posts: 501
Joined: January 17th, 2006, 8:04 pm
Contact:

Post by joshudson »

You can't cheat in multiplayer very easily. The obvious cheats just cause the game to go out of sync.
CHKDSK has repaired bad sectors in CHKDSK.EXE
User avatar
Des
Posts: 116
Joined: November 7th, 2007, 7:58 am
Contact:

Post by Des »

As long as there are observers, you could run two instances of Wesnoth and see the players moves a world away.

Unless I'm missing something...
User avatar
DDR
Posts: 556
Joined: March 23rd, 2007, 4:56 pm
Location: Kamloops, Canada
Contact:

Post by DDR »

If you play defensively, The opponent has the advantage of attacking their preferred time of day, and you tend to get less villages. Beware of overextending yourself, though. Check out this replay, it was fun. :)
Dave
Founding Developer
Posts: 7071
Joined: August 17th, 2003, 5:07 am
Location: Seattle
Contact:

Post by Dave »

Deciero wrote:As long as there are observers, you could run two instances of Wesnoth and see the players moves a world away.
If you're that concerned about cheating, then disable observers.

There are other ways to cheat, if you're willing to modify source code.

David
“At Gambling, the deadly sin is to mistake bad play for bad luck.” -- Ian Fleming
User avatar
Des
Posts: 116
Joined: November 7th, 2007, 7:58 am
Contact:

Post by Des »

DDR, that is a good point. The attackers do get to choose their time of day.

However, I would argue that what's more important is chance to hit. What good is +25% to damage if you can't hit the enemy 70% of the time?

Maybe this is just good in theory? I dunno...I don't have the experience to back this up (maybe you guys could help me out). I will admit that +25% is definitely nothing to snear at.

There's always mirror matches though, giving both factions the bonus. Then there's neutral units...
User avatar
Des
Posts: 116
Joined: November 7th, 2007, 7:58 am
Contact:

Post by Des »

DDR,

With regards to defensive players having less villages... This is not the case in small, evenly portioned maps like Clash. On that map, if you are defensive it means you are guarding your villages. There isn't anywhere else to go besides the other players side where their villages are.

I'm about to watch your replay now.
Noy
Inactive Developer
Posts: 1321
Joined: March 13th, 2005, 3:59 pm

Post by Noy »

I'm not really in the mood to give a full reply.

#1 Cheating is rare because of something you touched on. This game relies on a community of people that play regularly who know each other and aren't in it for the glory of winning, but having a good time. Its why we've resisted the institution of a formal ranking system, we like the user dynamics. You can go on and on about how people can cheat, but the reality is that people don't usually. Not much more to say on that.


#2 I think there is a tendency of many to say that the game is too defensive, especially when starting out, but there is plenty of evidence to suggest the contrary, with the possible exception of a Dwarves vs Dwarves match. I think this game actually gets it pretty bang on.

Here are two more in depth replies for your reading.

http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic. ... 997#239997
http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic. ... 638#255638
I suspect having one foot in the past is the best way to understand the present.

Don Hewitt.
Yogibear
Retired Developer
Posts: 1086
Joined: September 16th, 2005, 5:44 am
Location: Hamburg, Germany

Post by Yogibear »

I play this game for more than 2 years now (though not regularly) and i can only agree with Noy: There is no major advantage in playing defensively, though attacking successfully needs a lot of skill.

For the drakes: They are simply meant to be that way. Factions are not all equally built, they have their unique specialties. For drakes this is superior mobility, strength and low defense. Despite of these special characteristics, each faction is balanced against each other in standard matches. And the specialties only add to the replay value in my opinion.
Smart persons learn out of their mistakes, wise persons learn out of others mistakes!
Velensk
Multiplayer Contributor
Posts: 3991
Joined: January 24th, 2007, 12:56 am

Post by Velensk »

70% defense is wasted on anyone using magic against you. The factions without magic have methods of taking out high defence units, both offense and defence have advantages, if you want a demonstration I'm sure some of our masters here could show you how you are mistaken.
"There are two kinds of old men in the world. The kind who didn't go to war and who say that they should have lived fast died young and left a handsome corpse and the old men who did go to war and who say that there is no such thing as a handsome corpse."
User avatar
Iris
Site Administrator
Posts: 6729
Joined: November 14th, 2006, 5:54 pm
Location: Chile
Contact:

Post by Iris »

Deciro, you at least could reply to what the developers here (Dave, Noy and Yogi Bear) have said on the subject. Also, about people leaving: as Noy said, most of us play the game to have a break from mundane life, and get some fun without going too far from real life, so you can't expect all of us to have a fixed schedule and a 100% probability to finish a game; we all have things to do, and it may happen that new tasks arise in real life.
Author of the unofficial UtBS sequels Invasion from the Unknown and After the Storm (now available for Wesnoth 1.14.x and 1.15.4+).
Soliton
Site Administrator
Posts: 1630
Joined: April 5th, 2005, 3:25 pm
Location: #wesnoth-mp

Post by Soliton »

Deciero wrote:As long as there are observers, you could run two instances of Wesnoth and see the players moves a world away.

Unless I'm missing something...
I doubt there is any game out there, commercial or open source, where the client has full information about a game and makes it impossible to reveal that information to the player via some 'wall hack' or whatever cheat. And I don't think there are many games that can afford to (and actually do) have all the relevant calculations server side and communicate them to all clients.

So unless you propose to have all kinds of calculations done server side and probably increase the bandwidth usage by a noticable amount there is not much point in trying to prevent 'fog/shroud cheating'.
If you are really concerned about that kind of cheating you need to play no fog/shroud games.
"If gameplay requires it, they can be made to live on Venus." -- scott
Shiver
Posts: 67
Joined: September 9th, 2006, 8:00 pm

Post by Shiver »

Dwarvf vs Dwarf is atrocious, as are many of the other mirror matches. Beyond those, I don't agree that Wesnoth favors turtling at all. Offensive play is not about smothering the other side, it's about scoring kills and nabbing territory. Once you've broken down the other player's economy and have a level 2 at the ready, then you can charge in full speed ahead.
Tux2B
Posts: 1217
Joined: March 29th, 2005, 8:18 pm
Location: Toulouse (South of France)
Contact:

Post by Tux2B »

Cheating is very rare, AFAIK.

Concerning the fact Wesnoth is mostly defensive, I'd say that the main difficulty in Wesnoth is to learn how to have efficient attacks. Most beginners don't know how to attack well. Even for me it's the most difficult part, even more so since I don't have time this year to play the game regularly.
"There are two kind of campaign strategies : the good and the bad ones. The good ones almost always fail because of unforeseen consequences that make the bad ones succeed." -- Napoleon
Mr Alf
Posts: 9
Joined: August 20th, 2007, 9:40 pm
Location: Québec Ville

Re: Cool game, but not great. Here's why. (Please debate)

Post by Mr Alf »

Deciero wrote:I'm just calling into question why most of the units of a single race get to fly around, enabling them to easily reach tiles with low hit percentage- a critical part of the game.
I'm feeling you don't understand an aspect of the game. Just to be sure... Drakes have always like 40 or 50 % chance to be missed ( while, for example, elves have mostly 60% 70% chances to be missed ).

Drakes can own mountain or forest but they don't take advantage of it ( though they steal some good defense spot for their enemy ).

I don't master drakes tactic but I see it expands possibilities of confronting your enemy ( their chance to be hitted is always high ! ).
Locked