Improving Drake Gliders

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Cackfiend
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Improving Drake Gliders

Post by Cackfiend »

F8 Binds... wrote:give adequate reasoning for the change you present.
Okay, I have attempted to give "adequate reasoning" here by BOLDING the strengths of each scouting units and ITALICING the weaknesses.


HUMANS:


Cavalryman:

COST: 17
DMG: 6-3 Blade Melee
HP: 38
MP: 8
Resistances: 30% Blade, 20% Cold, 20% Holy, 40% Impact, -20% Pierce
Req Exp: 28
Terrain Defense: 40% Grassland, 30% Forest, 40% Hills, 40% Village


ELVES:

Elvish Rider:

COST: 18
DMG: 4-3 Blade Melee 6-2 Pierce Ranged
HP: 32
MP: 9
Resistances: 20% Holy, -20% Pierce
Req Exp: 22
Terrain Defense: 40% Grass, 60% Forest, 60% Mountains, 50% Hills, 40% Village


ORCS:

Wolf Rider:

COST: 17
DMG: 5-3 Blade Melee
HP: 32
MP: 8
Resistances: 20% Holy
Req Exp: 21
Terrain Defense: 40% Grass, 50% Forest, 60% Mountains, 50% Hills, 50% Village

UNDEAD:

Ghost:

COST: 20
DMG: 4-3 Cold (DRAINS) Melee 3-3 Cold Ranged
HP: 18
MP: 7
Resistances: 50% Blade, 70% Cold, 10% Fire, -50% Holy, 50% Impact, 50% Pierce
Req Exp: 21
Terrain Defense: 50% Everywhere

Vampire Bat:

COST: 13
DMG: 4-2 Blade Melee (DRAINS)
HP: 17
MP: 8
Resistances: 60% Cold, -20% Fire, -100% Holy
Req Exp: 10
Terrain Defense: 50% Everywhere; except 40% Caves

DWARVES:

Gryphon Rider:

COST: 24
DMG: 12-2 Blade Melee
HP: 34
MP: 8
Resistances: 20% Holy, -20% Impact
Req Exp: 25
Terrain Defense: 50% Everywhere; except 60% Mountains, 20% Caves, 30% Mushroom Groves

DRAKES:


Drake Glider:

COST: 16
DMG: 6-2 Impact Melee 3-3 Fire Ranged (MARKSMAN)
HP: 32
MP: 8
Resistances: 10% Blade, -50% Cold, 50% Fire, 20% Holy, 20% Impact, -10% Pierce
Req Exp: 25
Terrain Defense: 30% Grassland, 40% Forest, 40% Mountains, 40% Hills, 40% Village




Heres my breakdown:

Cavalryman: average cost, decent melee dmg especially if strong, the most hps of all the scouting units, very high impact and slash resist, gets his butt kicked by piercing weapons. Overall a very good unit.

Elvish Rider: average cost, low melee dmg unless strong, decent ranged dmg especially if dextrous, the fastest unit in the game, needs just 2 kills and 2 xp to level if intelligent, piercing weapons hurt, very high defense in forest and mountains, not very good village holders. Overall a very good unit.

Wolf Rider: average cost, ok melee dmg that turns to decent if strong, average hps, needs just 2 kills and 1 xp to level if intelligent, good village holders and excellent in mountains. Overall a pretty good unit.

Ghost: high cost, devastating melee attack if used at night, low hps makes it susceptible to ranged attacks, 7 MP, flying unit so it moves over most terrain types for just 1 MP but moves 2 MP each on water tiles, very very high resistances, 50% defense everywhere make it great on water, swamps, and anywhere else ud rather not stick a unit. Overall a very good unit.

Vampire Bat:
very very low cost, melee dmg if used at night can be very hard to kill, low hps, lv 0 unit (no ZoC), only needs 1 kill and 2 xp to level, 50% defense everywhere make it great on water, swamps, and anywhere else ud rather not stick a unit. flying unit so it moves over most terrain types for just 1 MP, Overall a kinda crappy unit, but hey its only 13 gold.

Gryphon Rider: most expensive unit in the game, very high melee dmg especially if strong, slightly above average hps, impact really hurts these guys, 50% defense everywhere make it great anywhere and the 60% defense in mountains is even better. flying unit so it moves over most terrain types for just 1 MP, Overall a very good unit.

Drake Glider: slightly below average cost, melee dmg sucks even if strong (though strong gliders can do 10 dmg a pop to -20 impact units during the day), 3-3 marksmen ranged is this units best feature and yet it still pretty much sucks... it does 4-3 in day time even to -20% fire units, average hps, piercing weapons can really hurt, even intelligent gliders need 2 and a half kills to level, defense is HORRIBLE with 40% being the max, flying unit so it moves over most terrain types for just 1 MP,
Overall the worst scouting unit in the game except for the ultra cheap vampire bat.


Giving gliders 50% defense to every terrain type in the game to match the other flying units isnt much to ask IMO. Or atleast 40% in grassland and maybe 50% in mountains? Id like to see the 3-3 ranged raised to 4-3 so that they can actually do 1 more dmg a pop to -20% fire units during the day but i'm doubting that will happen and it would probably raise the cost to 18 or so.
Last edited by Cackfiend on March 31st, 2007, 3:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
"There's no love in fear." - Maynard James Keenan

I'm the guy who's responsible for 40% Gliders in all hexes... I can now die a happy man. =D

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JW
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Post by JW »

You forgot to bold cost = 16 and 1mp over all non-cave terrain

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Cackfiend
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Post by Cackfiend »

cost 16 isnt worthy of being bolded and is mentioned in the notes as "slightly below average cost"

i did point out that the 4 flying units get 1 MP over most terrain types though (per your suggestion)


also, id be totally willing to pay 1 or 2 more gold if the glider was improved at all
"There's no love in fear." - Maynard James Keenan

I'm the guy who's responsible for 40% Gliders in all hexes... I can now die a happy man. =D

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Cuyo Quiz
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Post by Cuyo Quiz »

In before factions not units balanced?.

nah, it would be too crass, this is Wesnoth.

*goes reresearch a yellow pic without excessive fandom*
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F8 Binds...
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Post by F8 Binds... »

and 50% fire resistance, and the fact that the elvish scout has a 6-2 pierce ranged attack which is good against other horse-based units. Factions are balanced against factions, not units against units. Other than that, your strengths are mostly correct- weaknesses as well. Glider on small maps is not recruited where combat occurs soon- unless you need that extra movepoint. You view combat more than scouting when looking at a scout- not making sense here.

Weaknesses in your argument
Others that need bolding

I'm saying what anyone else would. I see where you are going- it may solve a "problem" in your mind, but it creates others.
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Cackfiend
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Post by Cackfiend »

i very much HIGHLY doubt giving gliders 10% more defense would create problems
"There's no love in fear." - Maynard James Keenan

I'm the guy who's responsible for 40% Gliders in all hexes... I can now die a happy man. =D

Imp
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Post by Imp »

http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=224142 is a fine endorsement for Drake Gliders being already incredibly powerful.

UngeheuerLich
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Post by UngeheuerLich »

yes, but this is vs undead, where fire and impact are really worthful.

From an undead point of view 50% defense on some terrains would be the best soluition, IF it is really too weak, because you usually kill them with adepts.
Anotheridea is changin the ranged attack to 4-2 or 5-2 instead of 3-3

Maybe costs should be increased by 1.

But: you should see your gliders more like the bat in most matchups: a very cheap scout which is slightly faster as the Drake fighters or saurials which are mainly used for grabbing villages in most matchups.

It is the sameas Undead: bats faster cheaper, but useless in fights (In 1.3.1. even useless vs undead)
And the same as Dwarves: Gryphons too expensive to be your only scouts. So footpads are your main scouts.

Another thing is: you must take the ability to get traits into account: so you can get 9 mp or 7-2 impact damage with 1mp cost on nearly all terrains, whith a marksman ranged attack... I think its a fair deal.

Velensk
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Post by Velensk »

I think that it has been shown (in wesnoth) over and over again that mobility is usefull on an standard size map. Gliders have the greatest mobility in the game (assuming non grass terrain for some of it) for the smallest price. They can also pack a small punch enough to finish of a unit in critical conditon. This is how they are now, and I think that this is how the developers want it to be. I imagine that unless you can convince them that there is something wrong with this veiw you're not going to get that change

As for your proposal:
Drakes
good terrain defence: 40% :10% increase
open terrain defence: 30% :20% increase
water terrain defence: 20%:30% increase

You're not giving a +10% to their defence your making it so this drake has defence anywhere, whereas most drakes have defence no where.
Gliders are meant to be scouts and village stealers olny. You probably don't want to recruit them for any other purpose (vs undead you might though)

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Cackfiend
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Post by Cackfiend »

Imp wrote:http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=224142 is a fine endorsement for Drake Gliders being already incredibly powerful.
no, but its a fine endorsement that they can be incredibly lucky

and as u can see, when theyre not lucky they get owned

adepts hitting at 70% would not be affected by an increase in defense for gliders
"There's no love in fear." - Maynard James Keenan

I'm the guy who's responsible for 40% Gliders in all hexes... I can now die a happy man. =D

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Wintermute
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Post by Wintermute »

Cackfiend wrote:i very much HIGHLY doubt giving gliders 10% more defense would create problems
I agree with you on that, from a balance point of view. Will that make them overpowered? I don't think so. However: Wesnoth tries to KISS as much as possible. Remember that Drakes (argueably) are the hardest race for a new player to learn, so doing something like changing the defense of one unit that seems otherwise to move and act the same as the rest complicates things a little bit more.
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Raemon
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Post by Raemon »

I think that you value the combat too much - The Glider's strength is great mobility and the marksman. You do not want to pit it against anything much.

Also, why is the Elvish Scout's 40% defense on villages a weakness? The cavalryman has it too.

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Cackfiend
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Post by Cackfiend »

Raemon wrote:I think that you value the combat too much - The Glider's strength is great mobility and the marksman. You do not want to pit it against anything much.

Also, why is the Elvish Scout's 40% defense on villages a weakness? The cavalryman has it too.
i dont value the combat at all, i just would like to see gliders be able to do what theyre suppose to do... take villages and scout without dieing easily. as of right now just about any 2 units can kill a drake glider. if they were just slightly more surviveable i think theyd be much more useable




and elvish scout's only getting 40% defense in a village is a weakness when they can get 60% defense in forest and mountains... cavalryman's most defense he'll get anywhere is 40% and therefore isnt a weakness
"There's no love in fear." - Maynard James Keenan

I'm the guy who's responsible for 40% Gliders in all hexes... I can now die a happy man. =D

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JW
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Post by JW »

Cackfiend wrote:i dont value the combat at all, i just would like to see gliders be able to do what theyre suppose to do... take villages and scout without dieing easily. as of right now just about any 2 units can kill a drake glider. if they were just slightly more surviveable i think theyd be much more useable

and elvish scout's only getting 40% defense in a village is a weakness when they can get 60% defense in forest and mountains... cavalryman's most defense he'll get anywhere is 40% and therefore isnt a weakness
And therefore is shouldn't be considered a weakness for the Drake either.

Look...scouts aren't meant to be ueber-units. They have massive movement at the cost of battle ability. Or, in the case of the Gryphon, unit price.

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Cackfiend
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Post by Cackfiend »

oh and btw, i fought a drake last night who made a strong resilient glider... i killed it with 2 units and i only hit 4/8

=/


gonna highlight my suggested idea here again:

50% defense everywhere
AND/OR
4-3 Ranged attack
AND add 1 or 2 gold to the cost (there is no 18 gold unit for drakes atm)
"There's no love in fear." - Maynard James Keenan

I'm the guy who's responsible for 40% Gliders in all hexes... I can now die a happy man. =D

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