Unit idea: goblin torcher

[Noy]

Want to play a 1v1 FP?

I'll be Northies, you be Undead, you can pick the (balanced) map and settings, and what position we start in.

If you already know that he will be undead, that kinds defeats the whole premise of this thread (random faction + fog).

Well that brings up my original point where you say that the archer is useless against some factions, which again I'd like to pont out is incorrect. Archers are an effective buy against all factions, particularly against the undead, while on the other hand a goblin burner would be ineffective against most factions. I argue that a goblin burner with 4 moves and melee attack would be a useless unit against the drakes, less useful than the spearman in almost all other situations.

Countering that, even against the Rebels the archer is an effective unit. Regardless of whether a opponent buys a wose or not, being able to do ranged attack and three attacks (for killing off high defence units) is a worthwhile unit to have. I almost always buy one regardless of the situation: they provide alot of flexibility and damage potential to an already effective lineup.

[JW]

Well, um, part of random is recruiting for all circumstances, which would probably include an Archer. Besides, if you're random too, recruiting all Ghosts is a huge gamble for your opponent, so.........................

JW, your post reminds me of the time I was random in a 2v2 and got undead. Since both of my opponents has selected their faction in advance, I knew that they were undead and northerners. I recruited several ghosts, knowing that they would be extremely difficult to kill until the enemy could afford to recruit more archers. By that time, I already had a sizable economic advantage and eventually captured every Northerner village without losing a single unit.

But they picked their factions in advance...you can't have it both ways for your argument, sapient...

[Sapient]

JW, your post reminds me of the time I was random in a 2v2 and got undead. Since both of my opponents has selected their faction in advance, I knew that they were undead and northerners. I recruited several ghosts, knowing that they would be extremely difficult to kill until the enemy could afford to recruit more archers. By that time, I already had a sizable economic advantage and eventually captured every Northerner village without losing a single unit.

But they picked their factions in advance...you can't have it both ways for your argument, sapient...

Ok, if you don't see my example story as even a slight problem then I don't plan on winning you over through other means. Agree to disagree.

[turin]

I have no opinion on adding a level 0 goblin torcher unit (I'm not qualified to discuss it), but I would like to say that I think a level 1 goblin torcher as an advancement of the goblin spearman (as that could perhaps advance into the goblin pillager) would be really cool.

[Noy]

Example 1:
On a map where villages are spread out and very far from your keep, the archer doesn't have the mobility to reach everywhere he may be needed to counterract ghosts. On a map like this, you may find it hard (or VERY risky) to recruit a ton of archers, particularly before you have even seen if your opponent is undead.

And a 4 movement gobo that may well be even MORE useless than a archer against other factions is supposed to remedy this how? Also Ghosts under almost all circumstances are completely ineffective by themselves to eliminate units sitting on villages particularly riders. They don't do nearly enough damage to kill units that get 8HP a turn sitting on a village, and thats been true for ghosts even before they got drain.

[JW]

Well, the problem is, whenever you have a random faction v a chosen faction, the random player, if they can play all factions effectively, will always have the advantage.

That isn't anything about Undead v Northerners.

My guess is that you didn't recruit 5 Ghosts on your opening recruit to go against the Northerners, because Ghosts alone cannot defeat anybody. They are weak and expensive, though can be hard to kill.

Even if a Northerner opponent misrecruits against an Undead player, if the Undead player recruits too many Ghosts, the Northerner can simply hold off the Ghosts until he recruits Archers to finish them. They can do this because of what I said just a moment ago: Ghosts cannot defeat anyone alone.

Now, let's assume that you've recruited a mixture of Undead units, a few Ghosts and whatever else you decide to get to break through the line of Northerners. Now, unless the player horribly misrecruited by recruiting only Riders, Goblins, and Assassins, they should be able to take out whatever other forces you bring along with the Ghosts. Once they take out those forces your offensive will be severely crippled, until, once again, the player can recruit some Archers to take out your Ghosts.

Basically, what I'm saying is, Ghosts aren't really that big of a deal. They're good for sliding in and taking out hurt enemies. They're okay for village stealing. They're awesome for ZOCing. What they aren't good for is pure offensive power. So, for every Ghost you recruit, you lose that much offense. This lack of offense allows your opponent more time to build their forces. It's for this reason that I never recruit more than 2 Ghosts in my opening recruit, ever - even against Northerners.

I hope this clarifies a little more my opinion on why Northerners are not severely threatened by Ghosts, even if they can be annoying to kill. Remember that Northies have the handy Whelp to take care of every other offensive option the Undead have. (Grunts are better for Adepts, and Archers for Ghouls and Skeletons, but Whelps can fight any of them well for only 13g.)


-edit-

Noy addressed my main point in his post as I was typing.

[Sapient]

Of course I recruited other units to do the majority of the damage. Most of my damage was done by Dark adepts.

[FleshPeeler]

Actually Ghosts are a big deal, and now I've seen it from the opposite perspective. Since your challenge, JW, I've started choosing Undead as my race for MP games and recruiting a bit less than 1/2 Ghosts. While I have so far only played 2 1v1 games of Undead vs. Northerner with a friend (and a solo 1 vs Northerner AI game that nobody would be willing to count, even though the conclusion was still true in that case) the Ghosts proved themselves to be an outstanding advantage. True they cannot kill by themselves, but their power is in the fact that they are so mobile that they can trap a unit until a Skeleton comes in and weakens it enough for a Ghost to finish. Once you get a couple of Wraiths that's pretty much game.

Ghosts are very fast and require few XP to level. While other Undead units fell just as easily as any other unit, Ghosts survived a lot of combat. It is because they can survive so many combats that they level up so easily.

Friend's observation: An Orc Archer's limited 5 movement vs. a Ghost's flying 7 MP will never, ever catch up to that Ghost. Goblin Archers do work well vs. Skeletons (I hadn't realized how well . . . I retract my argument that Archers need an extra fire shot now that I know how badly it would hurt Skeletons), but against a unit that is 2 MP faster and can travel over just about any terrain without difficulty, chasing a Ghost is just asking to walk into an ambush. Archers simply don't work as a plausible counter vs. Ghosts unless the Ghosts are on the front lines with the Archers, which they rarely will be because Ghosts simply aren't designed to work like that. Since Northerners have no viable counter against Ghosts, this makes the Ghost an unworkable advantage over Northerners.

By the way, I did easily kill a Troll Rocklobber with full health using only two Ghosts. The reason? Ghosts are so sturdy that they survived enough battles that one leveled up to a Wraith and finished it off.

Note that this comes after playing a few games using Undead myself and witnessing that overpower on the favored end. Northerners are my favored race, so I wanted to be positive my opinion was not biased. I am certain that it isn't now.

If anything, Northerners need a fire unit with speed, such as the Pillager. The balance problem comes from the fact that you're trying to pit a Northerner standard unit that is already needed against both Skeleton lines, Ghouls, WC, and Vampire Bats, against a specialty unit like the Ghost whose primary purpose is to trap units until other Undead can come and kill OR weaken it for a Ghost to kill. Does anybody not see the folly in expecting the secondary attack of a single Northerner unit to take on every single unit with the Undead trait, especially when 2 of those units are significantly more mobile?

The simplest suggestion I could make is to give Wolf Riders a secondary Fire melee attack that is NOT as strong as the Pillager's, and does NOT prove too much of a burden vs. Wose and other flamable units we don't want to threaten much with this change. A 4-2 Torch attack should be sufficient for this. Because Wolf riders typically have the same MP as a Ghost, they can keep up with them, and because Ghosts have freedom of movement over much terrain that Wolfriders do not, Ghosts will still have an edge that will keep their purpose viable.

[JW]

Ug...there's SO many things wrong with that assessment I don't even know where to begin!!!

[zookeeper]

...

Why would it take more time to get those archers to kill the ghosts than it takes for the skeletons to get there to finish off whatever it is the ghosts are harassing? Or why doesn't the same tactic work against ghosts - trap them with wolf riders and wait for archers to come finish them off?

I completely agree though that dealing with ghosts with northerners is just a pain - even two archers (four shots) against something with 50% defense isn't at all reliable. You can sort of (just sort of) count on getting one hit in, but that's not enough since the ghost just either heals in the village it's sitting on, or drains the same amount back on it's own turn (at least if it's night). That can go on for quite a few turns, and you really can't IMHO afford three archers against every ghost. Leveling into a wraith seems to be the simplest winning strategy for undead against most other factions, and the problem is that leveling a ghost is reasonably easy (at least with the normal 70% xp) - it's so mobile that it's easy to pick off wounded units with it and it usually doesn't take much return damage, meaning that it's rarely wounded enough on your opponent's turn (after you've collected your kill) that it can't be killed without some of those specialized ghost killers (magi, archers, etc) nearby. Two kills and a few easy fights and you level, and against a wraith there just doesn't seem to be other viable counters except multiple magi or spamming a great many archers (and the wraith can simply choose not to be in range of them anyway). Pinning down a wraith with other units while waiting for those few magi to get in range isn't usually very useful either, since the wraith (if not alone, then accompanied by almost any other unit) just mostly kills a lvl1 unit per turn (so you end up losing something like 3 good fighters to get that wraith).

[JW]

1) Don't play 2v1s or against AI to learn about balance
2) Ghosts cost 20, Archers cost 14
3) Archers move well over hills, and can be Quick
4) If Ghosts are being a nuisance, then they're right up in the front lines - killable by Archers
5) You can't get a Wraith if the opponent is smart (read, not AI)
6) Ghosts have 50% defense - not 70%
7) ..........

[zol]

It seems that ghosts do not need offensive power themselves to contribute to the army's offensive power because they allow the player to control the combat matches to their own advantage to a significant degree, effectively acheiving what would normally require additional units.

[Thrawn]

a comment on the JW v Fleshpeeler disagreement:
it all comes down to player skill, and some extent luck. If I could use my laptop, I'd play fleshpeeler as northerners (I'm assuming he has 1.1.7-8).

it takes just as much skill to trap a ghost as it does to use one effectively, so giving arguments and counterarguments are pointless--if it continues it will turn into comabatting strategies. I suggest 1)flesh peeler playing many more peopel before he judges, and playing people who are very good at the game.

let that whole argument drop, please, it has nothing to do with the idea being adressed, which was a goblin torcher.

though doesn't the pillager count, as it could keep up to ghosts...

[Darth Fool]

I have no opinion on adding a level 0 goblin torcher unit (I'm not qualified to discuss it), but I would like to say that I think a level 1 goblin torcher as an advancement of the goblin spearman (as that could perhaps advance into the goblin pillager) would be really cool.

I second this idea.

[Thrawn]

I have no opinion on adding a level 0 goblin torcher unit (I'm not qualified to discuss it), but I would like to say that I think a level 1 goblin torcher as an advancement of the goblin spearman (as that could perhaps advance into the goblin pillager) would be really cool.

I second this idea.

as do I