Unit idea: goblin torcher

[jb]

This is just my thought, so it means nothing....

but why cant you just recruit archers like your supposed to?

[Noy]

See that would be boring. People need a reason to post.

According to Sapient, he doesn't think that archers are that worthwhile of a unit, when its probably one of the most important units you can get for the northerners (if not the most important).

Sapient already knew that we didn't want to see it, but I guess he either wanted to drum up support to try to get it in, or give others the option to use it in a campaign.

[JW]

Personally, I have always felt Northerners to be rather one dimensional. An interesting unit could be nice...

Northerners are anything but 1-dimensional.

If any faction is 1-dimensional I'd say it's the Rebels.


"Hmm....what unit with Blade melee and Pierce ranged should I recruit? And what type of terrain should I put them in?"

[FleshPeeler]

I would be the first to stand up and support the claim that Ghosts are very powerful vs. Northerners. It is all too possible for an Undead player to summon practically nothing but Ghosts in order to fend off and entire Northerner army. Archers are too valuable to put into compromising situations where they will be severely counter-attacked and they often don't finish the job. Fighting Ghosts is extremely costly to a Northerner player, not to mention that Wolf Rider is blade-type, so the only good way to get a Goblin Pillager is by killing Dark Adepts.

At the same time, I don't think a level 0 fire melee unit is the answer. You're pitting a very weak unit vs. the Ghost's drain ability. Regardless that it's fire, it wouldn't be too helpful and it would give the Ghost free points on the kill.

Personally I've always felt that Ghosts were a little over-powered to begin with and the balancing done in the switch to 1.1.7 (mainly the freedom of movement over water) just tipped the scales too hard, but that's just me . . .

My remedy to this situation would be to give Orc Archers another attack on their fire. 2 shots isn't enough to kill a ghost (or a Wose for that matter), especially when the Ghost gets 3 shots against. Most units don't have the same weakness to fire as they do vs. pierce so I don't think it would cause too large of an issue.

[irrevenant]

I am not sure about the whole goblin pyro --> goblin pillager idea. If it were allowed, the exp requirement would have to be very high to reach L2 (to prevent the torcher line from undercutting the price of the wolfrider line).

That position assumes that 1xp is equally easy to get for each unit type. If the torcher is more fragile than the wolfrider, he's not the 'easy option' to reach the Pillager since he has to overcome greater odds to get there.

This is just my thought, so it means nothing....
but why cant you just recruit archers like your supposed to?

It seems to me that if you're 'supposed to' recruit archers, then there's no element of strategy there; just rote learning "If the enemy recruits X then recruit Y". Having multiple options - each with their own pros and cons - mean a real strategic decision has to be made.

Not arguing for this particular idea, BTW; just saying.

[Flametrooper]

Personally, I have always felt Northerners to be rather one dimensional. An interesting unit could be nice...

Northerners are anything but 1-dimensional.

If any faction is 1-dimensional I'd say it's the Rebels.


"Hmm....what unit with Blade melee and Pierce ranged should I recruit? And what type of terrain should I put them in?"

Nah, if you really want 1-dimensional, go with the Knalgans. At least Rebels have elemental damage types and unit branching.
(the proposed fire-ranged advancement from the thunder, which would have solved both problems, was IIRC rejected.)
But I guess I'd better quit hijacking this thread.

[JW]

This is just my thought, so it means nothing....
but why cant you just recruit archers like your supposed to?

It seems to me that if you're 'supposed to' recruit archers, then there's no element of strategy there; just rote learning "If the enemy recruits X then recruit Y". Having multiple options - each with their own pros and cons - mean a real strategic decision has to be made.

Not arguing for this particular idea, BTW; just saying.

The problem is that you need ranged to kill Ghosts, or heavy melee that will actually damage the Ghost.

Northies have 3 units with ranged: Archer,Assassin, and Gobby. The Gobby ain't gonna do the job, and the Assassin is, well, useless against Undead generally, especially for the cost.
Northies have 4 units with decent melee: Grunt, Whelp, Rider, Gobby.
Only the Grunt wil have a decent chance to leave the Ghost hurt after Drain. The problem is that there's always a 25% chance using the Grunt that he'll end up with the same, or more hp.

The reason why Northies v Ghosts is the way it is is because Northies have lower melee damage than most level 1 fighters, and are also the same alignment as the Ghost - meaning when they do more damage the Ghost will Drain more back. The additional cripple of having only 1 true ranged unit makes this particular matchup a situation where the Northerner must recruit Archers to be successful (against Ghosts).

Now, if the player only recruits Archers, he'll quickly get murdered by non-Ghost units, so really, the matchup is anything but 1-dimensional, though the specific counter for this particular unit is. But then again, how do you, for example, counter HI with Undead? or Horsemen with Loyalists? There's always a best counter, sometimes the choice is just clearer.

[FleshPeeler]

When Northerners have just one counter, this makes them easily exploitable.

Undead players can and do easily take advantage of Northerners. If they play Ghosts, it forces Northerners to recruit Archers. If the Undead player builds solid lines, a single Ghost could only take a total of 2 attacks from Archers. That Ghost will probably survive. Having lured two precious Archers to the front of the ranks, the Ghost now leaves the front lines to heal (note that it moves easily across much terrain) and then the Archers - injured by the Ghost - take retaliation from other Undead, likely getting killed, usually by another Ghost waiting on the background for XP so it can go Wraith.

Once Undead get a Wraith it's pretty much over for Northerners.

I seriously think that Ghosts need to require more XP to level. They are far, far too easily exploited, and there is really no way around the above strategy because Northerners are forced to comply and bet on luck.

[JW]

Want to play a 1v1 FP?

I'll be Northies, you be Undead, you can pick the (balanced) map and settings, and what position we start in.

[Zhukov]

How many hits does it take for an (Orc) archer to kill a ghost at the various time of day?
Is it 3 at night and dawn/dusk and 4 at day?

[FleshPeeler]

Want to play a 1v1 FP?

I'll be Northies, you be Undead, you can pick the (balanced) map and settings, and what position we start in.

Know what? I'm actually willing to take you up on that, except that Undead is probably my worst race. Give me a couple of days to learn how they work first

[Sapient]

According to Sapient, he doesn't think that archers are that worthwhile of a unit, when its probably one of the most important units you can get for the northerners (if not the most important).

Whoah, now now hold on thar'! This Sapient fellow, if I understand him correctly, finds the orc archer to be a plenty useful unit. However, in certain situations, (certain situations being the key phrase here, mind you) the ghost is a bit too powerful against the northies.

Example 1:
On a map where villages are spread out and very far from your keep, the archer doesn't have the mobility to reach everywhere he may be needed to counterract ghosts. On a map like this, you may find it hard (or VERY risky) to recruit a ton of archers, particularly before you have even seen if your opponent is undead.

Example 2:
On a map with several water villages that are not adjacent to land. The Goblin torcher would do absolutely nothing to help here.

These examples highlight "certain situations" I am talking about. It's a minor problem, not a huge one. And I admit the goblin torcher wouldn't solve the situation. Quite possibly, the unit would cause more harm than good (or be more trouble than it was worth).

Just brainstorming, that's all.

[Sapient]

Want to play a 1v1 FP?

I'll be Northies, you be Undead, you can pick the (balanced) map and settings, and what position we start in.

If you already know that he will be undead, that kinds defeats the whole premise of this thread (random faction + fog).

[JW]

Want to play a 1v1 FP?

I'll be Northies, you be Undead, you can pick the (balanced) map and settings, and what position we start in.

If you already know that he will be undead, that kinds defeats the whole premise of this thread (random faction + fog).

Well, um, part of random is recruiting for all circumstances, which would probably include an Archer. Besides, if you're random too, recruiting all Ghosts is a huge gamble for your opponent, so.........................

[Sapient]

If you already know that he will be undead, that kinds defeats the whole premise of this thread (random faction + fog).

Well, um, part of random is recruiting for all circumstances, which would probably include an Archer. Besides, if you're random too, recruiting all Ghosts is a huge gamble for your opponent, so.........................

JW, your post reminds me of the time I was random in a 2v2 and got undead. Since both of my opponents has selected their faction in advance, I knew that they were undead and northerners. I recruited several ghosts, knowing that they would be extremely difficult to kill until the enemy could afford to recruit more archers. By that time, I already had a sizable economic advantage and eventually captured every Northerner village without losing a single unit.