Forgotten Kingdom

Discussion and development of scenarios and campaigns for the game.

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Limabean
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Re: Forgotten Kingdom

Post by Limabean »

both those problems can be esplained by the fact that you havn't freed the wolves. You're still walking around outside the prison with Gashnu and Horn as Impalers, right?

Notice that in the prison, accross from where the ogres/trolls are imprisoned, there is an elf named "Beast Tamer" who starts standing on a rune. Just move to the rune and it will let you replace the goblin versions of Horn and Gashnu with the wolf rider versions.

The event triggered by moving Horn to the fort only recognizes the wolf rider version and the scrolling-to-leader problem will be fixed because you will actually be able to use that leader.

Sorry for the inconvenience, I should make it clearer that the player needs to do that before leaving the cave. I'll add some dialogue and change the objectives next chance I get (which might be this weekend, yay vacation! 8))
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Limabean
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Re: Forgotten Kingdom

Post by Limabean »

new version (0.0.9) uploaded.

I've made major changes to scenario 7, Crossing the Border, although the basic strategy remains the same. Hopefully now there will be less time spent moving units through the caves and waiting for the ai to move.

i've made the above mentioned changes to scenario 8 as well as a few unit edits.
from now on i'll post info on new updates as edits to this post.
As usual, feedback wanted. :)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Update1: Surprise! I'm not dead yet :lol2:
Version 0.1.0 uploaded. I've just finished scenario ten. It's relatively untested as I have only played through once. I will say that it is playable and beatable. If you have any trouble, just report it and i'll be happy to make the necessary improvements.

Other changes include a few bugfixes on scenarios 8 and 9.
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docrock
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Re: Forgotten Kingdom

Post by docrock »

hi, been playing through your current version on BfW 1.6.1 on default difficulty and got the following comments:

- Gashnu does not have an icon for his advancements
- the troll diversification is nice to have, but the swordstroll and speartroll advancements are nearly useless against the undead you get to fight with them
- the troll runner line is nice for exploration but not really good at fighting
- the troll lobbers are killers, especially the lvl2 and lvl3 advancements
- the troll berserkers are great, but they do not AMLA (like say 70 of 60 XP and no additional HP)?
- in some scenarios the turn limit is pretty harsh (this applies mostly to "Escape", i was lucky to have sent Horn to the east for exploration and Gashnu to the south, kind of tomatoe surprisish if you keep them together and send them both just plainly down the road, kind of misleading objectives there which could need better explanation me thinks)
- in "Friend or Foe" it is now with 1.6.x AI much harder to keep those caravans alive, placing them one or two hexes further away from the enemy might help
- during the troll scenarios i noted that you get a horde of goblins on the recall list every time you load again (some of them are so big i had to play them over several days due to time constraints) which actually does even double now and then. when i noticed this i had like 5min loading time on my 3GHz dual-core 3GB PC and about 200 goblin whatevers on my recall list. performance dramatically increased after dismissing those dudes (unexpectedly, lol)

generally, i am pretty satisfied with this campaign and i like the idea of playing different leaders of the same side over the course of events. good work, interesting story, nice to play.

edit: about "Escape" and "Friend or Foe" - today while at work i decided to have another go beginning with "Escape" and this time not thinking about elegance, xp, income and map clearing but just plainly using my knowledge from the previous playthrough and going straight for triggering events and fullfilling the objectives as quickly as possible from the point on of leaving the prison and going out in the open. this saved me 10 (in words: TEN) turns and of course gave me a lot more gold to start "FoF" with, making things there much easier. well, to say so, i think that those two scenarios are well playable if you know what is to happen and position the two key units Horn and Gashnu accordingly, this really needs some more hinting to the player imo.
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Limabean
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Re: Forgotten Kingdom

Post by Limabean »

Whoa, some feedback! :shock:
Ironically, I actually clicked on Scenario and Campaign Developement today with the intention of adding FK to the abandoned campaigns list. :cry:
I just haven't had time or motivation to do anything major for a while. Updating to 1.6 was the last bit I did recently. That said, I think i'll hold off on abandoning (at least for now) to address your suggestions.
- Gashnu does not have an icon for his advancements
- the troll diversification is nice to have, but the swordstroll and speartroll advancements are nearly useless against the undead you get to fight with them
- the troll runner line is nice for exploration but not really good at fighting
- the troll lobbers are killers, especially the lvl2 and lvl3 advancements
- the troll berserkers are great, but they do not AMLA (like say 70 of 60 XP and no additional HP)?
1. Mostly just because of laziness on my part :wink: . I'm no artist and I needed a whole lot of art for the different units. Believe it or not, there's still a bunch more unique units that I would need to introduce (with art) to make the next couple of scenarios satisfactory. Other Gashnu sprites are on the to-do list, but it's a pretty long list.
2. Yeah i know, but they woul come in useful against enemies in later scenarios I had planned, especially spearman. Goodbye Cavalry.
3. Just as I wanted. Not too useless in fighting imo.
4. Meh, not my favorite, but they are good.
5. the berserker amla problem is something I had'nt noticed. Not sure how to fix it though, I'll have to do some research. :hmm:
- in "Friend or Foe" it is now with 1.6.x AI much harder to keep those caravans alive, placing them one or two hexes further away from the enemy might help
6. FoF: Really? I didn't think the ai had changed that much in 1.6... and didn't test it :oops:. Problem will be fixed
- during the troll scenarios i noted that you get a horde of goblins on the recall list every time you load again (some of them are so big i had to play them over several days due to time constraints) which actually does even double now and then. when i noticed this i had like 5min loading time on my 3GHz dual-core 3GB PC and about 200 goblin whatevers on my recall list. performance dramatically increased after dismissing those dudes (unexpectedly, lol)
7. The goblin recall seems to be a reappearing problem with the two alternating leaders. I had honestly thought I fixed it because It didn't happen the last time I playtested. I've got know more ideas, but i'll look into it again when I get some more free time.
edit: about "Escape" and "Friend or Foe" - today while at work i decided to have another go beginning with "Escape" and this time not thinking about elegance, xp, income and map clearing but just plainly using my knowledge from the previous playthrough and going straight for triggering events and fullfilling the objectives as quickly as possible from the point on of leaving the prison and going out in the open. this saved me 10 (in words: TEN) turns and of course gave me a lot more gold to start "FoF" with, making things there much easier. well, to say so, i think that those two scenarios are well playable if you know what is to happen and position the two key units Horn and Gashnu accordingly, this really needs some more hinting to the player imo.
8. For escape, I guess thats the problem with self-playtesting :? . It's really hard to pretend I don't know whats going to happen. I promise to take steps to improve the problem.
When a scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong.
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docrock
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Re: Forgotten Kingdom

Post by docrock »

Whoa, some feedback!
Ironically, I actually clicked on Scenario and Campaign Developement today with the intention of adding FK to the abandoned campaigns list.
I just haven't had time or motivation to do anything major for a while. Updating to 1.6 was the last bit I did recently. That said, I think i'll hold off on abandoning (at least for now) to address your suggestions.
hehe, at least some good i did. it would be a shame to abandon this campaign as it is one of the few where to get to play the "bad" guys.
6. FoF: Really? I didn't think the ai had changed that much in 1.6... and didn't test it . Problem will be fixed
the thing is that the ai now really has no problems with throwing that initial units for maximum damage at you. that plus wesluck leads to loosing a unit for doing the ZoC thing on the persuers and protecting the caravans every two turns. and well, at best you can have relieve forces there by turn 6, so ...

also, about playtesting: you can't test anything you created yourself. be it progs, mods, books, car tuning or whatever. that is what other people are for.
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Limabean
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Re: Forgotten Kingdom

Post by Limabean »

I've gone through the campaign using debug just to see how stuff was working after some fiddling, and I noticed a lot of wierd things. :?
1. No goblin recall problem for me. I guess it could be because of debug, but i made a point of recruiting a few times during goblin scenarios to see if any of them turned up on the troll recall lists. Strange.

2. I ran into a few errors that I know for a fact were not there before 1.6. For example, the gashnu-in-wolf-rider-form spoke a line during the opening dialogue of Escape. I found no such error in the code so it just doesn't make any sense :augh:
Also, the troll shaman doesn't have a level 3 advancement, yet it clearly should if you just look at my code:
from the shaman unit file:

Code: Select all

    level=2
    alignment=chaotic
    advances_to=Troll Elder
    cost=32
    usage=mixed fighter
and the Troll Elder unit file:

Code: Select all

#textdomain wesnoth-Forgotten_Kingdom
[unit_type]
    id=Troll Elder
    name= _ "Troll Elder"
    race=troll
    image=units/trolls/elder.png
    {MAGENTA_IS_THE_TEAM_COLOR}
    [abilities]
        {ABILITY_REGENERATES}
    [/abilities]
    hitpoints=60
    movement_type=largefoot
    [resistance]
        pierce=90
    [/resistance]
    movement=5
    experience=150
    level=3
    alignment=chaotic
    advances_to=null
    {AMLA_DEFAULT}
    cost=45
    usage=mixed fighter

can you confirm that these problems exhist?
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docrock
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Re: Forgotten Kingdom

Post by docrock »

1. No goblin recall problem for me.
as i see this it only happens when save-loading. the more saving and loading the worse.
For example, the gashnu-in-wolf-rider-form spoke a line during the opening dialogue of Escape.
lol, i did not mention this as i thought i was seeing things. actually i got some completely weird dialogue boxes the size of 1x1cm which i could only get rid of by pressing space, as far as i can tell there was no text in them (well, umm, would be hard to read anything in there due to the size anyways).
Also, the troll shaman doesn't have a level 3 advancement
oh dear, if there really was such a lvl3 shaman that would ease things a lot, as it is there is none, but as stated concerning the berserker AMLA something about XP, advancing and AMLA does not seem right, i am no WML programmer so i dunno where this does originate from.

edit: more lol, for some reason i just had to think about a movie title relating to those recall-list-goblins, here it is: Revenge of the Recall-List-Goblins Part II - The Return
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Limabean
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Re: Forgotten Kingdom

Post by Limabean »

as i see this it only happens when save-loading. the more saving and loading the worse.
Hmmm, yeah that makes sense. Unfortunately, I think that puts it out of my range in terms of WML knowledge. I have know idea how the effect is caused or how it could be prevented. :?
Does anyone with more experience have some answers?
For now, I think i'll put a little warning at the beginning of the campaign...
lol, i did not mention this as i thought i was seeing things. actually i got some completely weird dialogue boxes the size of 1x1cm which i could only get rid of by pressing space, as far as i can tell there was no text in them (well, umm, would be hard to read anything in there due to the size anyways).

yeah, that problem has been there since I first made the scenario. It's actually six dialogue boxes (so you can just click six times in rapid succession to get past them). I think they have something to do with the six "River Guards" of that scenario but I just don't understand the connection. :hmm:
oh dear, if there really was such a lvl3 shaman that would ease things a lot, as it is there is none, but as stated concerning the berserker AMLA something about XP, advancing and AMLA does not seem right, i am no WML programmer so i dunno where this does originate from.
Yep, more complete mysteries to me. The level 3 shaman worked fine in 1.4, and since I haven't made any changes (other than those necessary to update), It doesn't make any sense that it doesn't work now :evil:

Well, as you can see, there are a lot of problems that go beyond my programming skills. I'll make all the improvements that I can (hopefully update this weekend) and then pass it on to someone who can fix the rest. :(
Don't worry though, I have no intention of letting it die completely. If no one else takes up the project, I have every intention of finishing it at a later time (maybe when I can get some real programming experience :wink: )
When a scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong.
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docrock
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Re: Forgotten Kingdom

Post by docrock »

Well, as you can see, there are a lot of problems that go beyond my programming skills. I'll make all the improvements that I can (hopefully update this weekend) and then pass it on to someone who can fix the rest.
Don't worry though, I have no intention of letting it die completely. If no one else takes up the project, I have every intention of finishing it at a later time (maybe when I can get some real programming experience )
just keep up the great work you did so far.
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The ministry of health warns:
Living is dangerous to your health and may finally result in death.
You are a Dwarvish Berserker: you're freaking crazy and enjoy it. (100% ...)
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docrock
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Re: Forgotten Kingdom

Post by docrock »

sorry for consecutive posting, but i thought an edit a day later would not make that much sense.
well, again about "Friend or Foe": as stated i am playing on default difficulty but the gold-per-village of the enemies in this scenario is just crazy. 5gpv for each of them vs. poor Gashnu with 1gpv and an useless AI ally? if you don't get them really really early you are just screwed there and in big trouble with the turn limit also. i started FoF with about 360 gold this time and thought that was pretty good. yet still, the map and especially the placement of villages and the lack of healers on the player's side all accumulate to taking 2 turns to get a unit on a village while at the same time being thrown 3-4 units a turn (one of them lvl2) at you from the enemy which as stated also has much higher income. suggestion: reduce enemy income to 3 or 4 gpv, at least at default difficulty and/or different placing of villages to allow for 1-turn-healing.
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The ministry of health warns:
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Kelben
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Re: Forgotten Kingdom

Post by Kelben »

A little thing:
Scenario Red River: When the game begins, the troll shaman has its movements consumed already (one village less and one recruitment less, a bit frustrating)
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anishgce
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Re: Forgotten Kingdom

Post by anishgce »

I managed to kill all the enemies in Red River Scenario of Forgotten kingdom but when i start the next scenario the game doesnt start and it is in loading mode. :(

Any tips???
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Turuk
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Re: Forgotten Kingdom

Post by Turuk »

Strange, I could not duplicate that issue. Did you try reloading the save of the turn before and winning again to see if it worked the second or third time around?
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axelotl
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Re: Forgotten Kingdom

Post by axelotl »

I have just played through Forgotten Kingdom (version 0.1.1) on normal difficulty. Thank you for this campaign, which I enjoyed. Here are some comments on the individual scenarios:

(1) Raiders: difficult the first time through (I lost), because I didn't know what to expect. Also, I can't heal Horn in a village, which makes it easy for him to die.

(2) The Ambush: (with starting gold 224). A very nice scenario - an interesting challenge with just the right level of difficulty.

(3) Red River: a nice map, but the assassination of the Orc leader is a bit of a tomato. Half of my army was on the far side of the river attacking Alfas as part of my plan to defeat the humans. (Sir Merrick died on turn 7; Alfas left the field on turn 17). I wouldn't bother with playing so aggressively in a replay, and Orlog might just go for a little walk before the assassins arrive.

(4) Slavedrivers: (starting gold 328). Bats are just free xp for Troll Mystics. (Actually, Dwarvish Fighters and Orcish Grunts don't fare much better. I think the Troll Mystic is overpowered.) With an army composed largely of Mystics, this scenario was pretty easy.

(5) Chased Invaders: (starting gold 483). Compared with the Dwarvish Ulfserker, the Troll Wrecker has a better attack, more hit points, heals quicker and costs a lot less. So I mixed a few of these over-powered Thunderer-killers into my Mystic spam.

(6) Crossing the border: (starting gold 1044). Underground, my large army of Mystics/Shamans burns through everything (again). Subtlety was not required. I finished on turn 28 (of 70).

(7) Escape: (starting gold 271, but I didn't recruit). The first half - in the jail - is nice, if you survive the first turn. (It's easy to lose on the first turn if one of the three main characters gets badly injured, and we don't have enough fire-power to keep them out of the fight.) Unfortunately, the second half has limited replay value - you just have to move [redacted] to [redacted] immediately after you move [redacted] to [redacted]. For extra xp, you can also move the rest of your army to [redacted] to kill the Elvish Marshal that appears there. I would suggest adding some more incentive to stay on the path - perhaps have some Woses lying in ambush randomly scattered throughout the woods. In addition, the Elvish Marshal should arrive at the head of his army rather than recruiting it on the following turn.

(8) Friend or Foe: (starting gold 277). A nice scenario, which I enjoyed.

(9) Road to Revenge: (starting gold 1035). Even with a huge amount of gold, I found this scenario difficult because it took me a while to realize that Turus has to run for it. I wasted a lot of gold trying to get a four-legged relief column through so that he could make a stand in situ. Eventually, I saw the error of my ways and made Turus run to Orlog. The second problem is that I'm very short of villages for healing, so I have to keep churning out fresh L1s to avoid being crushed under the combined weight of the Humans and the Drakes. Once the Drakes die and I inherit their villages, everything suddenly changes - I get a lot more income (5 per village!) and can actually manage to do some healing.
I don't think the minimum starting gold of 150 is realistic for this scenario.

I preferred the smaller, shorter scenarios rather than large scale slugfests, but that may just be a personal prejudice. The new Troll units are interesting but are currently over-powered (or, equivalently, under-priced), in my opinion.
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Limabean
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Re: Forgotten Kingdom

Post by Limabean »

useful feedback axelotl, thanks. Since school just just got out (yay vacation!!!), I have both the time and the desire to act on your suggestions. Here's what I think:
(1) Raiders: difficult the first time through (I lost), because I didn't know what to expect. Also, I can't heal Horn in a village, which makes it easy for him to die.
I think i'll just get rid of fog altogether to remove the surprise. I will also put one village, maybe two (I don't want to add more than that because it would be too easy), on the edge of the mountains for Horn, or anyone else, to heal.
(3) Red River: a nice map, but the assassination of the Orc leader is a bit of a tomato. Half of my army was on the far side of the river attacking Alfas as part of my plan to defeat the humans. (Sir Merrick died on turn 7; Alfas left the field on turn 17). I wouldn't bother with playing so aggressively in a replay, and Orlog might just go for a little walk before the assassins arrive.
not sure whether i'll change this a lot. If I do, it'll probably be in the form of a few more orcs appearing to help out with the assassins.
(4) Slavedrivers: (starting gold 328). Bats are just free xp for Troll Mystics. (Actually, Dwarvish Fighters and Orcish Grunts don't fare much better. I think the Troll Mystic is overpowered.) With an army composed largely of Mystics, this scenario was pretty easy.
How many leveled units did you have? I'm considering giving the orcs level 2 recruits to even it out.
(7) Escape: (starting gold 271, but I didn't recruit). The first half - in the jail - is nice, if you survive the first turn. (It's easy to lose on the first turn if one of the three main characters gets badly injured, and we don't have enough fire-power to keep them out of the fight.) Unfortunately, the second half has limited replay value - you just have to move [redacted] to [redacted] immediately after you move [redacted] to [redacted]. For extra xp, you can also move the rest of your army to [redacted] to kill the Elvish Marshal that appears there. I would suggest adding some more incentive to stay on the path - perhaps have some Woses lying in ambush randomly scattered throughout the woods. In addition, the Elvish Marshal should arrive at the head of his army rather than recruiting it on the following turn.
Yeah, I agree with you completely on this. I've never really enjoyed the second half of the scenario either. You got me thinking and i've already drawn up a newish map for it. The beginning will stay the same, except that when the goblins break out of their cells, the elvish guards will send a messenger to elvish city. As a result, when you leave the prison there will be a large elvish army conveniently blocking the escape.

I've added a castle for Gashnu near the prison exit and there will be a similar one for the elves not far away. I intend for it to be a short, bloody battle which will end the scenario.
(9) Road to Revenge: (starting gold 1035). Even with a huge amount of gold, I found this scenario difficult because it took me a while to realize that Turus has to run for it...
I admit this scenario is practically untested. I came up with a plot for it, threw together a basic scenario, made sure it was playable (no game-crashing bugs), and then never came back to it. That was just when I stopped working on the campaign. i'll certainly take another look and try to balance it more.
The new Troll units are interesting but are currently over-powered (or, equivalently, under-priced), in my opinion.
Hmm, I think I'll raise the prices rather than decrease the stats. Trolls deserve to be kick-ass. 8)
When a scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong.
-Arthur C. Clarke-
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