Message to Wesnoth community

General feedback and discussion of the game.

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Estrada
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Message to Wesnoth community

Post by Estrada »

Greetings to everyone in the Wesnoth Community!

I, the player known as ShadowVeil am writing this post to address an issue that most of the active players have been a part of, in one way or another. I have been repeatedly breaking the code of conduct for Battle for Wesnoth's official server during the last couple of years. I do not feel proud of my attitude and I want to discuss the possibility of making amends for my consistent inappropriate behavior and fix whatever bad blood there is between me, moderators, developers and the community itself.

I humbly and sincerely apologize for every bad word, every insult, every abuse whether it's on a racial, sexual, psychological or discriminatory basis. I had to take a long hard look at myself. A wise singer's lyrics say "...So if the solution has never been the look in yourself, how is it that you expect to find it anywhere else?..." I regret all the negativity I let out of me towards people, as a result ruining the fun for them. I regret the mockery I made of players when they did not deserve it, I regret acting in a contemptuous manner, when there should be equality and respect among everyone. I regret cheating in the past and gaining tactical advantage over opponents. It was ugly and unacceptable on my part, I honestly do not even think of doing it anymore, and I learnt my lesson. I hope that the players I disappointed and let down, the people that believed in me and I pushed away with my actions, find it in their hearts to forgive me. I realize this may be too much to ask, but the road to redemption has to start somewhere.

On a personal level, I do feel like I treat people better now, and I try to be much, much more peaceful . If there is the tiniest hope that I may get a second chance by the community or administration, I will take it. I will do whatever action or series of actions I can, to convince the people of Wesnoth that I deserve to play with my original nickname ShadowVeil again.

To sum it up, I want to express my gratitude to everyone of the players, who put up with my difficult temper over the years and I want to thank the people who continuously gave me chance after chance (you know who you are). I want to thank the moderators, developers, and all the people who put hard work behind the scenes to give us the great joy and challenge this strategic game offers. I want people to feel like games with me are enjoyable, spark interest and I am contributing to Battle for Wesnoth's entertainment and value. Please take into consideration my request to be accepted back into the community, if you are feeling gracious.
Last edited by Estrada on January 7th, 2021, 9:15 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Cackfiend
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Re: Message to Wesnoth community

Post by Cackfiend »

For starters, as someone who has had to deal with ShadowVeil's antics many times over the past several years as the Ladder administrator, I would like to say thank you for the heartfelt and sincere-sounding apology. I have spoken to many people about you lately and they have all said good things about your attitude and demeanor these last several months.

I think for the good of the Wesnoth multiplayer community that fixing things like SV's would go a long way in furthering the goal of making Wesnoth a more popular game that everyone can enjoy. The competitive community has a lot of mixed feelings about you, but I encourage them to give you another chance and move forward from the past of ignorance, hate, and immaturity. It is my understanding that you are a father now and have grown a lot as a person, and I know that does a lot of things to someone's perspective in life.

If it was up to me I would give you another chance to be welcomed back into the Wesnoth community, but I am just one person. Regardless of what happens, I think this is a good first step towards your goal of rejoining the community, and I look forward to seeing what your actions are in the future.

I forgive you.


I was wrong.
Last edited by Cackfiend on March 17th, 2021, 8:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"There's no love in fear." - Maynard James Keenan

I'm the guy who's responsible for 40% Gliders in all hexes... I can now die a happy man. =D
LeadFox
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Re: Message to Wesnoth community

Post by LeadFox »

personally idc about toxicity

the evolutionary purpose of the feeling of admiration is to repeat desirable behavior in a population. it's pretty clear why having this in our genes would be an advantage

admiration is a two player game, the admirer is filled with a sense of awe, and the admired feels a sense of accomplishment and prestige... all of this is healthy and pushes humans to accomplish great things

some people break rules in order to feel admired, because it is easier than achieving great things. To feel that they are better than their peers. that's not healthy, and is narcissism

just don't let the desire to be admired overcome the innate curiosity of the game... if that is somehow a choice. It seems random for me to say these things but when i break down the reasons i feel various emotions, i feel un attached and can make logical decisions better, and i hope me saying this has a similar effect for you

i'm curious why you want your old name back? you apparently can play the game without it.
Estrada
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Joined: May 24th, 2020, 6:31 pm

Re: Message to Wesnoth community

Post by Estrada »

To answer your question Leadfox, most of the community knows me as ShadowVeil, including some of the players that are not active anymore. Also, I can't hope to play ladder with ShadowVeil name unless the ban is lifted on forums too
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TheChosenOne
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Re: Message to Wesnoth community

Post by TheChosenOne »

I started playing Wesnoth in 2006, so I have a long memory.

There is reason why SV was banned for life.

Originally, he was banned for cheating, but he is more infamously known for his trash talking. What many people might not know is his psychological games were worse.

The first time I met him was in a Royal Rumble game, almost a decade ago. We had a disagreement, and he kicked me out of his game. That was fine, he was the host, but he went one step further and created alts to join the subsequent games I hosted, just so he can quit after a few turns and in one instance, I disconnected as red. He (blue) took control, let me back in just so he could kick me. That was how petty it was, and led me to quitting the game the first time.

Fast forward a couple of years ago, I thought maybe then it would be safe to play multiplayer, as SV might not be playing anymore. I successfully played a couple of games but my luck ran out - of course he was still playing the game. Someone not named SV trash talked me so bad that it could only be SV. I filed a moderator complaint and as it turned out - yes, that was an alt.

Sometime later, I tried to play a Bob's RPG game where you had to kill a lich in the end with 5 players. In case you are not familiar with Bob's RPG, it takes 5+ hours to complete so here I was playing contently with 4 other players. SV was observing and two of the players seemed to troll the same way he did, but whatever. Towards the end, when we were supposed to face the lich, 3 of the players emptied their inventories deliberately and then left the game, confirming my suspicious all along - they were all his alts.

This made me leave the game on a semi-permanent basis as SV could be anywhere, anytime and you won't always have a trusted friend list to play with. That was how ridiculously psycho he was and ruined the game for me. This was sometime in 2016 or 2017.

A few people have observed that his behaviour seemed fine in the last 6 months, so he might have changed, right?

Think again: https://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.ph ... il#p655493

As early as May 2020, he was still trash talking Caritas using YET ANOTHER alt.

Do you think someone who has been systematically trolling, trash talking and psychologically torturing other players for a decade is suddenly going to change in less than a year?

How many others has he driven out of Wesnoth that are no longer here today to speak their minds?

I know Wesnoth's player base has been declining recently, but I sincerely hope we have not stooped so low as to allow such a toxic, manipulative psycho back into the game. He is still playing with his alts anyway, and giving him his original nick back is rewarding unacceptable behaviour that violates the CoC and would send a wrong message to the community.
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ReNoM
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Re: Message to Wesnoth community

Post by ReNoM »

Hey guys. In our country we have a proverb which sounds something like "in any clash both sides are responsible for it". ShadowVeil's behavior is offensive, but people who's eligible to make decisions in this game have pushed him to behave this way. I mean, if admins tried to give him a second chance much earlier, maybe there wouldn't exist most of his abusive behavior. Also I'm aware of some abusive behavior from admins towards other players, so those players got banned immediately (and for life) for a minor violation of the rules.
To add some cons of ShadowVeil's unban, if a player does trash talking from a single username, you can just add him to your black list to don't see his messages. If he creates a new username each time he has been banned, you will see his messages once in a while and will have to spend your time to update your black list each time he creates a new username. I won't comment on the first message in this topic, but I think ShadowVeil deserves a second chance, especially after he wrote this.
To elaborate on the topic, I suggest unbaning some other players who has been banned from the game, from the ladder, and from other game-related facilities (I don't mean myself actually, since I don't mind I was banned from the discord, and even if I get banned from the game server in the future, I won't mind, because I actually haven't been played wesnoth actively for about a decade, the only two reasons I'm still here is the tournaments I still organize and the russian community that still exists). I think these people deserve the second change since they didn't do anything that broke the law. Also, they already have been banned for some time (so the admins have already punished those players as they wanted).
To finish up, I'll add a few words about the cheating. The developers have never seen the cheating as a problem in this game. So why a player should get banned for a cheating if it isn't a problem?
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Krogen
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Re: Message to Wesnoth community

Post by Krogen »

Yeah, give him another chance.
He's been around for years and probably will be. So if he is willing to try and change his behavior for good, it'd be best for everyone to just give it a shot. Also, a sign of good will like this from others, right after he wrote this message, will surely have a positive impact and push him even further in the right direction.
"A lion doesn't concern himself with the opinions of the sheep." - Tywin Lannister
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Maboul
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Re: Message to Wesnoth community

Post by Maboul »

My 2¢, it would be nice to give him a second chance.
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garad4
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Re: Message to Wesnoth community

Post by garad4 »

Yes give him another chance, do it for the lulz.
While it’s true most Dragons are cruel, the Shivan Dragon seems to take particular glee in the misery of others, often tormenting its victims much like a cat plays with a mouse before delivering the final blow.
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Cackfiend
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Re: Message to Wesnoth community

Post by Cackfiend »

ReNoM wrote: January 8th, 2021, 8:24 am I mean, if admins tried to give him a second chance much earlier, maybe there wouldn't exist most of his abusive behavior.
I cant speak for Wesnoth admins, but as far as the ladder is concerned he was given a second chance early on but continued to cheat. That was over 7 years ago.
ReNoM wrote: January 8th, 2021, 8:24 am Also I'm aware of some abusive behavior from admins towards other players, so those players got banned immediately (and for life) for a minor violation of the rules.
Some wesnoth admins do have a dark history with their moderation being extreme. For example, I remember Noy banning a friend of mine for saying something silly in chat.

ReNoM wrote: January 8th, 2021, 8:24 am To elaborate on the topic, I suggest unbaning some other players who has been banned from the game, from the ladder, and from other game-related facilities (I don't mean myself actually, since I don't mind I was banned from the discord, and even if I get banned from the game server in the future, I won't mind, because I actually haven't been played wesnoth actively for about a decade, the only two reasons I'm still here is the tournaments I still organize and the russian community that still exists). I think these people deserve the second change since they didn't do anything that broke the law. Also, they already have been banned for some time (so the admins have already punished those players as they wanted).
any recommendations?
ReNoM wrote: January 8th, 2021, 8:24 am To finish up, I'll add a few words about the cheating. The developers have never seen the cheating as a problem in this game. So why a player should get banned for a cheating if it isn't a problem?
I dont understand this. In competitive games of course cheating is a problem.
"There's no love in fear." - Maynard James Keenan

I'm the guy who's responsible for 40% Gliders in all hexes... I can now die a happy man. =D
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Cackfiend
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Re: Message to Wesnoth community

Post by Cackfiend »

TheChosenOne wrote: January 8th, 2021, 2:17 am I started playing Wesnoth in 2006, so I have a long memory.

There is reason why SV was banned for life.

Originally, he was banned for cheating, but he is more infamously known for his trash talking. What many people might not know is his psychological games were worse.

The first time I met him was in a Royal Rumble game, almost a decade ago. We had a disagreement, and he kicked me out of his game. That was fine, he was the host, but he went one step further and created alts to join the subsequent games I hosted, just so he can quit after a few turns and in one instance, I disconnected as red. He (blue) took control, let me back in just so he could kick me. That was how petty it was, and led me to quitting the game the first time.

Fast forward a couple of years ago, I thought maybe then it would be safe to play multiplayer, as SV might not be playing anymore. I successfully played a couple of games but my luck ran out - of course he was still playing the game. Someone not named SV trash talked me so bad that it could only be SV. I filed a moderator complaint and as it turned out - yes, that was an alt.

Sometime later, I tried to play a Bob's RPG game where you had to kill a lich in the end with 5 players. In case you are not familiar with Bob's RPG, it takes 5+ hours to complete so here I was playing contently with 4 other players. SV was observing and two of the players seemed to troll the same way he did, but whatever. Towards the end, when we were supposed to face the lich, 3 of the players emptied their inventories deliberately and then left the game, confirming my suspicious all along - they were all his alts.

This made me leave the game on a semi-permanent basis as SV could be anywhere, anytime and you won't always have a trusted friend list to play with. That was how ridiculously psycho he was and ruined the game for me. This was sometime in 2016 or 2017.

A few people have observed that his behaviour seemed fine in the last 6 months, so he might have changed, right?

Think again: https://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.ph ... il#p655493

As early as May 2020, he was still trash talking Caritas using YET ANOTHER alt.

Do you think someone who has been systematically trolling, trash talking and psychologically torturing other players for a decade is suddenly going to change in less than a year?

How many others has he driven out of Wesnoth that are no longer here today to speak their minds?

I know Wesnoth's player base has been declining recently, but I sincerely hope we have not stooped so low as to allow such a toxic, manipulative psycho back into the game. He is still playing with his alts anyway, and giving him his original nick back is rewarding unacceptable behaviour that violates the CoC and would send a wrong message to the community.
Hello fellow 2006 player :)

What you described is similar to many experiences people have had with ShadowVeil over the years. I myself have been victim to it, and I have known many others who will probably never come back to Wesnoth because of it. He did a lot of damage to the multiplayer community, no doubt.

The goal here is to move past that. I know I'm ready and willing. Every time I've come back to Wesnoth over the years I message several people asking about SV and this is the only time people have said nothing but positive things about him. I've had some long talks with him as well. This is why I am personally giving him another chance. If you don't want to I will perfectly understand why, but I encourage you to open a dialogue with him.

Wesnoth's activity has actually been much better as of recently. Ladder numbers, for example, are the best they've been in 5+ years. I am looking to grow those numbers. SV not being a problem anymore is critical to the success of multiplayer wesnoth and the competitive scene.

I think being mature and friendly with everyone should be the goal. Let go of hate and resentment towards one another, even if they deserved it at some point.
"There's no love in fear." - Maynard James Keenan

I'm the guy who's responsible for 40% Gliders in all hexes... I can now die a happy man. =D
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Pentarctagon
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Re: Message to Wesnoth community

Post by Pentarctagon »

To nip this in the bud: SV's original account isn't being unbanned. Neither also will anyone else's permanently banned account be unbanned based on what's said in this thread - public debate of decisions regarding whether or not someone's ban is appropriate is not something that's ever been accepted here on the forums in the first place, much less for cases that may be many years old by now with many of the details lost and the moderators involved no longer active.

And while it is very true that people can change, as far as myself and the rest of the moderation staff are concerned, given the sheer depth of the negative history for SV, the second chance he has right now is simply that he isn't being perma-banned on sight anymore.
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Vilebeggar
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Re: Message to Wesnoth community

Post by Vilebeggar »

SV's original account isn't being unbanned.
Wait a minute, so his original account isnt getting unbanned, yet he is allowed to access wesnoth freely using "other" accounts as you said the second chance he has right now is simply that he isn't being perma-banned on sight anymore, I failed to see the logic on that.
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Pentarctagon
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Re: Message to Wesnoth community

Post by Pentarctagon »

The fact that he hasn't been reported to be continuing his old habits is enough to not continue banning him, but it has no bearing on reversing previous bans.
99 little bugs in the code, 99 little bugs
take one down, patch it around
-2,147,483,648 little bugs in the code
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Vilebeggar
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Re: Message to Wesnoth community

Post by Vilebeggar »

What i meant was that what is the point of banning the original account yet allowing his bootlegs. Whats the big deal with unbanning the original? Thats all he asks.
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