Unit cost..

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Na'enthos
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Unit cost..

Post by Na'enthos »

I was browsing the wiki and noticed that what seemed like similar units can have very different costs. This is more of an issue with the cost in gold than the 'cost' in xp, overall..

I didn't compare all units, but I'll give a few examples below. I didn't add more examples because it would make the post a bit too long. Obviously, this doesn't mean this type of discrepancy is the case everywhere.. a comparison of much more units would be necessary. Stats used are copied from the wiki.

Orc Grunt line compared to elvish Fighter to Champion line

Orcish Grunt

Level: 1
Cost: 12
Race: Orc
Alignment: Chaotic
Moves: 5
HP: 38
XP: 42
Advances to: Orcish Warrior
Sword (Blade, 9-2)
---
Elvish Fighter

Level: 1
Cost: 14
Race: Elf
Alignment: Neutral
Moves: 5
HP: 32
XP: 38
Advances to: Elvish Captain Elvish Hero
Sword (Blade, 5-4)
Bow (Pierce, 3-3)
---
---
Orcish Warrior

Level: 2
Cost: 22
Race: Orc
Alignment: Chaotic
Moves: 5
HP: 52
XP: 60
Advances to: Orcish Warlord
Advanced from: Orcish Grunt
Sword (Blade, 10-3)
---
Elvish Hero

Level: 2
Cost: 40
Race: Elf
Alignment: Neutral
Moves: 5
HP: 48
XP: 80
Advances to: Elvish Champion
Advanced from: Elvish Fighter
Sword (Blade, 8-4)
Bow (Pierce, 6-3)
---
---
Orcish Warlord

Level: 3
Cost: 30
Race: Orc
Alignment: Chaotic
Moves: 5
HP: 80
Advanced from: Orcish Warrior
Sword (Blade, 13-4)
Bow (Pierce, 5-3)
---
Elvish Champion

Level: 3
Cost: 100
Race: Elf
Alignment: Neutral
Moves: 5
HP: 70
Advanced from: Elvish Hero
Sword (Blade, 12-4)
Bow (Pierce, 9-4)


Those few lines I've checked usually differ less in cost if you compare the first level units. You can see that here, with Grunts costing a bit more xp to upgrade but a bit less gold to recruit compared to elvish fighters.

The elvish hero, however is a lot more expensive than the orcish warrior.. with reason in this case as it is obviously better. Difference: about 20 gold and 20 XP in favour of the orcish unit.

The elvish champion is much more expensive than the orcish warlord.. no less than 70 gold. In this case I find this much less justified than in the case of the elvish hero.. both units have a melee and ranged attack, with the warlord having a slightly better melee attack and the champion having a better ranged attack. Noting that the warlord has more hit points the champion is still superior, but IMHO hardly to the extent of making it cost 70 gold more than it's orcish counterpart.


Human bowman line compared to elvish archer to sharpshooter line

Bowman

Level: 1
Cost: 15
Race: Human
Alignment: Lawful
Moves: 5
HP: 33
XP: 39
Advances to: Longbowman
Advanced from: Peasant
Sword (Blade, 6-2)
Bow (Pierce, 6-3)
---
Elvish Archer

Level: 1
Cost: 18
Race: Elf
Alignment: Neutral
Moves: 6
HP: 29
XP: 44
Advances to: Elvish Ranger Elvish Marksman
Sword (Blade, 5-2)
Bow (Pierce, 5-4)
---
---
Longbowman

Level: 2
Cost: 32
Race: Human
Alignment: Lawful
Moves: 5
HP: 45
XP: 80
Advances to: Master Bowman
Advanced from: Bowman
Sword (Blade, 8-2)
Bow (Pierce, 10-3)
---
Elvish Marksman

Level: 2
Cost: 60
Race: Elf
Alignment: Neutral
Moves: 6
HP: 37
XP: 90
Advances to: Elvish Sharpshooter
Advanced from: Elvish Archer
Sword (Blade, 6-2)
Longbow (Pierce, 9-4) marksman
---
---
Master Bowman

Level: 3
Cost: 45
Race: Human
Alignment: Lawful
Moves: 5
HP: 46
Advanced from: Longbowman
Sword (Blade, 7-3)
Bow (Pierce, 11-4)
---
Elvish Sharpshooter

Level: 3
Cost: 90
Race: Elf
Alignment: Neutral
Moves: 6
HP: 45
Advanced from: Elvish Marksman
Sword (Blade, 7-2)
Longbow (Pierce, 10-5) marksman


Again, the first-level units differ very little in cost.. these units are approximately equal in potence although the elvish archer is better in the field both are used for (ranged attacks) and has one move more. As counterpoints the bowman has a better melee attack and more hitpoints.
Not sure why the elvish archer is more expensive, but it's not much.

The elvish marksman is about twice the cost of the longbowman (60 gold compared to 32) but the cost in xp is only 10 in favour of the longbowman. Again, both are approximately equal in combat capability with the extra move and marksman in favour of the marksman and a higher amount of hit points in favour of the longbowman. I think 28 gold difference is a bit much, but the elvish marksman is the better of the two, mostly because of marksman.

The elvish sharpshooter is exactly twice as expensive as the master bowman.. (90 and 45 gold respectively). The units' hit points are about equal, the elven unit has the extra move and marksman still in it's favour and is now definitely better in combat, with it's melee attack about the same as that of the master bowman. More than with the other two units the elvish sharpshooter is without a doubt the better unit.. but are the extra 45 gold worth it? I doubt a sharpshooter is as good as two master bowmen.

Any comments?
Ayin
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Post by Ayin »

Well, melee-oriented factions should have cheaper melee units. IMO, it is perfectly OK if an orcish melee unit is cheaper that its elvish counterpart, considering the Northerners are not supposed to have as good ranged units as the Rebels do.
Olorin
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Post by Olorin »

One factor that you left out of your comparison are the differences in alignment of the units. The elvish units are neutral, meaning that they don't need to worry about the day/night cycle affecting their attacks. Both the orcs and humans have to worry about the timing of their attacks, elves only need worry about whether their opponents are affected.

I consider neutrality of units to be an advantage for them, so it helps explain the higher costs for those units.
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Post by Ayin »

Neutrality works both sides: With equal stats, a lawful unit will be stronger than its neutral counterpart at day. Some here consider that units which have a high mobility are favoured by being lawful or chaotic, because they can choose when they will fight and when they will flee; on the other hand units with a lower mobility, which cannot always choose when they will fight, are better being neutral.
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Post by Circon »

Olorin wrote:One factor that you left out of your comparison are the differences in alignment of the units. The elvish units are neutral, meaning that they don't need to worry about the day/night cycle affecting their attacks. Both the orcs and humans have to worry about the timing of their attacks, elves only need worry about whether their opponents are affected.

I consider neutrality of units to be an advantage for them, so it helps explain the higher costs for those units.
I really don't think a Champion should cost 100 and a Warlord 30. That's not "higher", that's "multiple"!
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turin
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Post by turin »

elvish unit costs have never been balanced, while other costs have.

this should be fixed, soon...
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Shadowfury333
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Post by Shadowfury333 »

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned terrain factors. Elves have the best defense overall (matched only by the Loyalist Fencer), so the cost is somewhat justified.
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Doros
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Post by Doros »

Shadowfury333 wrote:I'm surprised that no one has mentioned terrain factors. Elves have the best defense overall (matched only by the Loyalist Fencer), so the cost is somewhat justified.
Orcish Assassins have better defense, don't they?
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Post by Circon »

Everybody with Elusivefoot has the same defenses. 70% in forest, castle, hills, mountains and villages. 60% on grassland.

Start loking at movement types. Elusivefoot is used by the Thief line, the Fencer line, the Orcish Assassin line, and some other I can't recall.
Shadowfury333
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Post by Shadowfury333 »

Circon wrote:Everybody with Elusivefoot has the same defenses. 70% in forest, castle, hills, mountains and villages. 60% on grassland.

Start loking at movement types. Elusivefoot is used by the Thief line, the Fencer line, the Orcish Assassin line, and some other I can't recall.
My point is that elves are hard to hit, so their cost is justified. Although I wouldn't miund a price drop for te archers (1 or 2 gp)
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Na'enthos
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Post by Na'enthos »

The cost is justified? 2 Master bowmen for one elvish sharpshooter? 3 Orc Warlords for one elvish champion? Are you serious? I'd say make a field test and see which wins.. I highly doubt the outcome shows the elvish units as the victors.

Anyway..

Elven terrain modifiers and attack resistances (from elvish fighter)

Orc Grunt terrain modifiers and attack resistances

As you can see the elvish unit has a better defense in the forest (70% and 50% resp.), Tundra (30% and 20% resp.) and Swamp water (40% and 30% resp.) and the orc has a better defense in caves (30% and 40% resp.).

The elvish unit is definitely in the advantage.. however I'm unsure what the cost-increase should be for his advantage. Indeed, I say that (taking the terrain defense into account) probably makes the Orc Slayer cheap indeed.

Anyway.. IMHO unit effectiveness in multiplayer should be the final judge (well.. the devs are the judges, I know :wink: ), as in the game unit advantages (if used properly) can truly show a unit's worth. Just as some advantages are more situational than others. Elves are great in forest but that's much less useful than, say, undead resistance to impact and blade.. especially against elves as they have mostly impact and blade attacks.

Meh. Yes I know, I like the elves. But I'm not trying to make them better than any other race.
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Post by Elvish_Pillager »

An Orcish Warlord costs less than a Gryphon Rider.

An Elvish Hero costs twice as much as an Orcish Warrior, or a Swordsman... can 2 Elvish Heroes beat 4 Orcish Warriors?

An Elvish Marksman costs 60 gold... fight with an Elvish Marksman in forest vs. three Orcish Warriors in water. Who wins?
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Post by joshbosh321 »

Elvish Pillager wrote:An Orcish Warlord costs less than a Gryphon Rider.
I agree that this needs to be fixes. There is less increase in cost from the level 2 to level 3 unit in this tree than there is from level 1 to level 2. The increase in experience needed to get them (which is a factor when balancing individual lines, IMO) is also disproportionate to the cost.
Elvish Pillager wrote:An Elvish Hero costs twice as much as an Orcish Warrior, or a Swordsman... can 2 Elvish Heroes beat 4 Orcish Warriors?
on the right terrains, absolutely, IMO. I am not sure, though, so if you tear me apart for saying this be gentle. Also, I still agree with the point you were making.
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casueps
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Post by casueps »

Olorin wrote:Both the orcs and humans have to worry about the timing of their attacks
They do have to worry about that but when their time of day comes they are really powerful, more than elves that, being neutral, don't have any time of day where their attacks become stronger. So one thing compensates another. IMO there's no alignment better than other.

About the high defence of elves, they only have 70% in one terrain while fencers, orcish assassins, thieves and footpads have 70% in four terrains, as Circon said.
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Post by turin »

casueps wrote:
Olorin wrote:Both the orcs and humans have to worry about the timing of their attacks
They do have to worry about that but when their time of day comes they are really powerful, more than elves that, being neutral, don't have any time of day where their attacks become stronger. So one thing compensates another. IMO there's no alignment better than other.
dave has said this, and i agree with him: "units with a lot of movement gain an advantage from being alligned lawful or chaotic, because they get to choose the time of day the encounter is in. units who move slow gain an advantage from being neutral, because there is never a good time for the enemy to come and attack."
casueps wrote:About the high defence of elves, they only have 70% in one terrain while fencers, orcish assassins, thieves and footpads have 70% in four terrains, as Circon said.
but they pay for it with low damage, low health, and low resistances.
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