Missing Dwarves in Multiplayer
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Re: Missing Dwarves in Multiplayer
What are you talking about? Undead are very far from the slowest faction, most of the units are about average, and then they've got Ghosts & Bats, in case you've forgotten them. Plus, Ghosts have Arcane (Melee) and Cold (Ranged) which are the drake's major weaknesses.Eskon wrote:Not more of an advantage than drakes have over them. Undead are generally considered the slowest faction, while drakes are the fastest, so the 19-2 damage of the adept at night does not come in as often as the undead player will like.
Re: Missing Dwarves in Multiplayer
Name a faster one.SirTheta wrote:What are you talking about? Undead are very far from the slowest faction, most of the units are about average, and then they've got Ghosts & Bats, in case you've forgotten them. Plus, Ghosts have Arcane (Melee) and Cold (Ranged) which are the drake's major weaknesses.Eskon wrote:Not more of an advantage than drakes have over them. Undead are generally considered the slowest faction, while drakes are the fastest, so the 19-2 damage of the adept at night does not come in as often as the undead player will like.
I suspect having one foot in the past is the best way to understand the present.
Don Hewitt.
Don Hewitt.
Re: Missing Dwarves in Multiplayer
Faster? To an extent, Drakes, Rebels and Loyalists.Noy wrote:Name a faster one.SirTheta wrote: What are you talking about? Undead are very far from the slowest faction, most of the units are about average, and then they've got Ghosts & Bats, in case you've forgotten them. Plus, Ghosts have Arcane (Melee) and Cold (Ranged) which are the drake's major weaknesses.
Re: Missing Dwarves in Multiplayer
Err, I meant slower.
I suspect having one foot in the past is the best way to understand the present.
Don Hewitt.
Don Hewitt.
Re: Missing Dwarves in Multiplayer
I'd say Northerners, Undead & Knalgan are all approximately on par (overall) as far as how "slow" they are.Noy wrote:Err, I meant slower.
Re: Missing Dwarves in Multiplayer
Uh we're talking about the undead I thought.. they are much slower than the northerners due to inferior movetype and lack of quick traits. Same goes for the Knalgans. Loyalists are probably closest but the presence of fencers, and horsemen and Cavalry skew it to them as well.
I suspect having one foot in the past is the best way to understand the present.
Don Hewitt.
Don Hewitt.
Re: Missing Dwarves in Multiplayer
Northerners are 2 on most terrains, like Skeleton/Skeleton Archer/Dark Adept. While I do agree, lack of quick traits is an disadvantage, they also have the Ghost & Bat. Thus, on average, on par with Northerners. Fencers, Horsemen and Cavalry constitute a large percentage of Loyalists Recruits (37.5%) versus Ghosts & Bats constituting undead (28.6%). Also, Cavalry/Horsemen have 8 MP by default. Although, I will concede, unless on Flat, this isn't as big an advantage.Noy wrote:Uh we're talking about the undead I thought.. they are much slower than the northerners due to inferior movetype and lack of quick traits. Same goes for the Knalgans. Loyalists are probably closest but the presence of fencers, and horsemen and Cavalry skew it to them as well.
As for Knalgans.. granted, they have better movement type on Hills/Mountains, but 3/8 of their units have 4 MP by default. 2 more have 5, 1 has 6, 1 7 and 1 8. The one with 8 MP is the only one not impeded [mostly] by terrain, the rest have about the same terrain cost as Undead/Northerners.
Re: Missing Dwarves in Multiplayer
Ghosts and bats are only two units, which don't make up a faction. Anybody can recruit all scouts and claim they are "faster;" They can also die really quickly when they try to defend against a proper attack. When you play the UD properly there are really only three units you will mass recruit, Adepts skels and ghouls. Ghosts and Bats are only one or two offs.
Moreover the ghost is limited in effectiveness in many matchups, especially against the Drakes where movement counts. Against every other match up the opposing faction has better high mobility units. Knalgan, being an alliance, have a couple of units you might of heard of; the outlaws? You know the theives and footpads? Oh they also have this other unit, the gryphon. Northerners have their own scout the wolf, and as a whole have better movements than their opposite number.
Seriously, any good player will tell you the undead are the slowest race in the entire match up. Knalgans may seem slow but they are fairly mobile when you use them right. Loys have similar problems as the UD but have traits and more mobile units. More people will buy cavalry and or Horsemen than ghosts any day, because they are useful against almost every faction, where the latter is not.
Moreover the ghost is limited in effectiveness in many matchups, especially against the Drakes where movement counts. Against every other match up the opposing faction has better high mobility units. Knalgan, being an alliance, have a couple of units you might of heard of; the outlaws? You know the theives and footpads? Oh they also have this other unit, the gryphon. Northerners have their own scout the wolf, and as a whole have better movements than their opposite number.
Seriously, any good player will tell you the undead are the slowest race in the entire match up. Knalgans may seem slow but they are fairly mobile when you use them right. Loys have similar problems as the UD but have traits and more mobile units. More people will buy cavalry and or Horsemen than ghosts any day, because they are useful against almost every faction, where the latter is not.
I suspect having one foot in the past is the best way to understand the present.
Don Hewitt.
Don Hewitt.
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Re: Missing Dwarves in Multiplayer
For every Drake unit that can be killed via the Dark Adept (usually about a 49% ctk anyway), there is an Undead unit that can be slaughtered by a Drake Burner (usually with better odds) during the day. Take the Ghost for instance... it's nowhere near a fair fight. A Drake player having trouble attacking the Undead doesn't have enough Burners. And yes, I realize that a Burner vs. an Adept isn't a fair fight, but you're supposed to kill Adepts via melee in any match-up.SirTheta wrote:What are you talking about? Undead are very far from the slowest faction, most of the units are about average, and then they've got Ghosts & Bats, in case you've forgotten them. Plus, Ghosts have Arcane (Melee) and Cold (Ranged) which are the drake's major weaknesses.Eskon wrote:Not more of an advantage than drakes have over them. Undead are generally considered the slowest faction, while drakes are the fastest, so the 19-2 damage of the adept at night does not come in as often as the undead player will like.
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Re: Missing Dwarves in Multiplayer
Their slowest units also are unimpeded by forests.SirTheta wrote:As for Knalgans.. granted, they have better movement type on Hills/Mountains, but 3/8 of their units have 4 MP by default. 2 more have 5, 1 has 6, 1 7 and 1 8. The one with 8 MP is the only one not impeded [mostly] by terrain, the rest have about the same terrain cost as Undead/Northerners.
The net effect is that if the unit in question has to cross even one hill/forest, the dwarf is just as fast; if a mountain/multiple-forest-hills, then the dwarf is faster.
I'd put the dwarves about the same speed as the undead skeletons/adepts. But the knalgans also have the thief, footpad, and gryphon that are all faster, putting them on the faster end of the scale (bats are fast, but very weak; ghosts are about the slowest fast unit in the game).
The Fires of Pride 0.3, a heavily story based campaign.
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Re: Missing Dwarves in Multiplayer
Not to mention that makes it much easier to maintain zone of control with dwarves on typical mixed terrain.Joram wrote:Their slowest units also are unimpeded by forests.SirTheta wrote:As for Knalgans.. granted, they have better movement type on Hills/Mountains, but 3/8 of their units have 4 MP by default. 2 more have 5, 1 has 6, 1 7 and 1 8. The one with 8 MP is the only one not impeded [mostly] by terrain, the rest have about the same terrain cost as Undead/Northerners.
The net effect is that if the unit in question has to cross even one hill/forest, the dwarf is just as fast; if a mountain/multiple-forest-hills, then the dwarf is faster.
A good way to build intuition for this is to play The Hammer of Thursagan through repeatedly. For 1.6.x, The Dwarven Kingdom is also good intuition building (although that campaign has some rough edges and is incomplete).
Re: Missing Dwarves in Multiplayer
Weird that no one mentioned the humongous weakness ghosts have against fire.
I usually consider 50% resistance "normal" for ghost. In fact it's probably better to "normalize" ghost's stats to an equivalent like this:
I usually consider 50% resistance "normal" for ghost. In fact it's probably better to "normalize" ghost's stats to an equivalent like this:
- Double the HP: 18HP x 2 = 36 HP
- Adjust the resistances ((resistance - 50%) x 2):
- Blade, pierce, impact: (50% - 50%) x 2 = 0%
- Fire: (10% - 50%) x 2 = -80%
- Cold: (70% - 50%) x 2 = 40%
- Arcane: (-10% -50%) x 2 = -120%
- Double all healing
More detailed explanation: