Missing Dwarves in Multiplayer

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SirTheta
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Re: Missing Dwarves in Multiplayer

Post by SirTheta »

Eskon wrote:Not more of an advantage than drakes have over them. Undead are generally considered the slowest faction, while drakes are the fastest, so the 19-2 damage of the adept at night does not come in as often as the undead player will like.
What are you talking about? Undead are very far from the slowest faction, most of the units are about average, and then they've got Ghosts & Bats, in case you've forgotten them. Plus, Ghosts have Arcane (Melee) and Cold (Ranged) which are the drake's major weaknesses.

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Re: Missing Dwarves in Multiplayer

Post by Noy »

SirTheta wrote:
Eskon wrote:Not more of an advantage than drakes have over them. Undead are generally considered the slowest faction, while drakes are the fastest, so the 19-2 damage of the adept at night does not come in as often as the undead player will like.
What are you talking about? Undead are very far from the slowest faction, most of the units are about average, and then they've got Ghosts & Bats, in case you've forgotten them. Plus, Ghosts have Arcane (Melee) and Cold (Ranged) which are the drake's major weaknesses.
Name a faster one.
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SirTheta
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Re: Missing Dwarves in Multiplayer

Post by SirTheta »

Noy wrote:
SirTheta wrote: What are you talking about? Undead are very far from the slowest faction, most of the units are about average, and then they've got Ghosts & Bats, in case you've forgotten them. Plus, Ghosts have Arcane (Melee) and Cold (Ranged) which are the drake's major weaknesses.
Name a faster one.
Faster? To an extent, Drakes, Rebels and Loyalists.

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Re: Missing Dwarves in Multiplayer

Post by Noy »

Err, I meant slower.
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SirTheta
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Re: Missing Dwarves in Multiplayer

Post by SirTheta »

Noy wrote:Err, I meant slower.
I'd say Northerners, Undead & Knalgan are all approximately on par (overall) as far as how "slow" they are.

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Re: Missing Dwarves in Multiplayer

Post by Noy »

Uh we're talking about the undead I thought.. they are much slower than the northerners due to inferior movetype and lack of quick traits. Same goes for the Knalgans. Loyalists are probably closest but the presence of fencers, and horsemen and Cavalry skew it to them as well.
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SirTheta
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Re: Missing Dwarves in Multiplayer

Post by SirTheta »

Noy wrote:Uh we're talking about the undead I thought.. they are much slower than the northerners due to inferior movetype and lack of quick traits. Same goes for the Knalgans. Loyalists are probably closest but the presence of fencers, and horsemen and Cavalry skew it to them as well.
Northerners are 2 on most terrains, like Skeleton/Skeleton Archer/Dark Adept. While I do agree, lack of quick traits is an disadvantage, they also have the Ghost & Bat. Thus, on average, on par with Northerners. Fencers, Horsemen and Cavalry constitute a large percentage of Loyalists Recruits (37.5%) versus Ghosts & Bats constituting undead (28.6%). Also, Cavalry/Horsemen have 8 MP by default. Although, I will concede, unless on Flat, this isn't as big an advantage.

As for Knalgans.. granted, they have better movement type on Hills/Mountains, but 3/8 of their units have 4 MP by default. 2 more have 5, 1 has 6, 1 7 and 1 8. The one with 8 MP is the only one not impeded [mostly] by terrain, the rest have about the same terrain cost as Undead/Northerners.

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Re: Missing Dwarves in Multiplayer

Post by Noy »

Ghosts and bats are only two units, which don't make up a faction. Anybody can recruit all scouts and claim they are "faster;" They can also die really quickly when they try to defend against a proper attack. When you play the UD properly there are really only three units you will mass recruit, Adepts skels and ghouls. Ghosts and Bats are only one or two offs.

Moreover the ghost is limited in effectiveness in many matchups, especially against the Drakes where movement counts. Against every other match up the opposing faction has better high mobility units. Knalgan, being an alliance, have a couple of units you might of heard of; the outlaws? You know the theives and footpads? Oh they also have this other unit, the gryphon. Northerners have their own scout the wolf, and as a whole have better movements than their opposite number.

Seriously, any good player will tell you the undead are the slowest race in the entire match up. Knalgans may seem slow but they are fairly mobile when you use them right. Loys have similar problems as the UD but have traits and more mobile units. More people will buy cavalry and or Horsemen than ghosts any day, because they are useful against almost every faction, where the latter is not.
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Re: Missing Dwarves in Multiplayer

Post by Aethaeryn »

SirTheta wrote:
Eskon wrote:Not more of an advantage than drakes have over them. Undead are generally considered the slowest faction, while drakes are the fastest, so the 19-2 damage of the adept at night does not come in as often as the undead player will like.
What are you talking about? Undead are very far from the slowest faction, most of the units are about average, and then they've got Ghosts & Bats, in case you've forgotten them. Plus, Ghosts have Arcane (Melee) and Cold (Ranged) which are the drake's major weaknesses.
For every Drake unit that can be killed via the Dark Adept (usually about a 49% ctk anyway), there is an Undead unit that can be slaughtered by a Drake Burner (usually with better odds) during the day. Take the Ghost for instance... it's nowhere near a fair fight. A Drake player having trouble attacking the Undead doesn't have enough Burners. And yes, I realize that a Burner vs. an Adept isn't a fair fight, but you're supposed to kill Adepts via melee in any match-up.
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Joram
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Re: Missing Dwarves in Multiplayer

Post by Joram »

SirTheta wrote:As for Knalgans.. granted, they have better movement type on Hills/Mountains, but 3/8 of their units have 4 MP by default. 2 more have 5, 1 has 6, 1 7 and 1 8. The one with 8 MP is the only one not impeded [mostly] by terrain, the rest have about the same terrain cost as Undead/Northerners.
Their slowest units also are unimpeded by forests.

The net effect is that if the unit in question has to cross even one hill/forest, the dwarf is just as fast; if a mountain/multiple-forest-hills, then the dwarf is faster.

I'd put the dwarves about the same speed as the undead skeletons/adepts. But the knalgans also have the thief, footpad, and gryphon that are all faster, putting them on the faster end of the scale (bats are fast, but very weak; ghosts are about the slowest fast unit in the game).
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Re: Missing Dwarves in Multiplayer

Post by zaimoni »

Joram wrote:
SirTheta wrote:As for Knalgans.. granted, they have better movement type on Hills/Mountains, but 3/8 of their units have 4 MP by default. 2 more have 5, 1 has 6, 1 7 and 1 8. The one with 8 MP is the only one not impeded [mostly] by terrain, the rest have about the same terrain cost as Undead/Northerners.
Their slowest units also are unimpeded by forests.

The net effect is that if the unit in question has to cross even one hill/forest, the dwarf is just as fast; if a mountain/multiple-forest-hills, then the dwarf is faster.
Not to mention that makes it much easier to maintain zone of control with dwarves on typical mixed terrain.

A good way to build intuition for this is to play The Hammer of Thursagan through repeatedly. For 1.6.x, The Dwarven Kingdom is also good intuition building (although that campaign has some rough edges and is incomplete).

Yoyobuae
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Re: Missing Dwarves in Multiplayer

Post by Yoyobuae »

Weird that no one mentioned the humongous weakness ghosts have against fire.

I usually consider 50% resistance "normal" for ghost. In fact it's probably better to "normalize" ghost's stats to an equivalent like this:
  • Double the HP: 18HP x 2 = 36 HP
  • Adjust the resistances ((resistance - 50%) x 2):
    • Blade, pierce, impact: (50% - 50%) x 2 = 0%
    • Fire: (10% - 50%) x 2 = -80%
    • Cold: (70% - 50%) x 2 = 40%
    • Arcane: (-10% -50%) x 2 = -120%
  • Double all healing
Like this it's much easier to understand ghosts: average HP, normal damage from blade/pierce/impact, resistance to cold, huge weakness to fire/arcane and double the amount of healing from villages/resting/healing.
More detailed explanation:

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