Heir to the Throne rant/idea suggestion

General feedback and discussion of the game.

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Developers

Post Reply
Jozrael
Posts: 1034
Joined: June 2nd, 2006, 1:39 pm
Location: NJ, USA.

Re: Heir to the Throne rant/idea suggestion

Post by Jozrael »

Joram wrote:...
Thank you. Someone needed to take the time to lay this all out.
User avatar
Turuk
Sithslayer
Posts: 5283
Joined: February 28th, 2007, 8:58 pm
Contact:

Re: Heir to the Throne rant/idea suggestion

Post by Turuk »

Jozrael wrote:Thank you. Someone needed to take the time to lay this all out.
Indeed.
Dalkor wrote:For the record, I was talking about a largely original campaign that traces the activities of Asheviere and her allies/minions as a complement to HttT. Obviously a campaign like this could be used to portray the characters of HttT in a new light, so I thought that the folks here who take a different interpretation of the cast than the one given on the surface of the campaign might be interested in working on a campaign to turn their views into something more substantial than forum musings. The question about using HttT material was prompted by its obvious uses in a campaign so closely related.
One of the beautiful things about open source is that it is fair game. I know that you are trying to go the right route and check to see if this is frowned upon before attempting to draft up a campaign that tells how you think the story should be told, and that is always a nice gesture, but no worries. Users are free to do as they want with mainline material (as you saw with markm), and so if a bunch of users wanted to put a campaign on the add-on server entitled The Usurper or The Maligned Queen or whatever (just random examples), there is no harm in that. Do know that it would probably have to be decently written and long enough to mirror the events in HttT in order to make it convincing.
Mainline Maintainer: AOI, DM, NR, TB and THoT.
UMC Maintainer: Forward They Cried, A Few Logs, A Few More Logs, Start of the War, and Battle Against Time
mcv
Posts: 52
Joined: March 25th, 2009, 12:47 pm

Re: Heir to the Throne rant/idea suggestion

Post by mcv »

Joram makes some good points. I'm also not quite on Orcish Shyde's side when it comes to Asheviere being evil. I have no doubt she's an evil and oppressing ruler, and it's quite possible that the elves are the defenders of freedom, particularly from slavery. However, Konrad is just not the legitimate heir, but they're trying to create legitimacy for him anyway. If he gets the Sceptre of Fire, for example, people might be more willing to accept his claim to the throne. Also, he seems to have been raised for exactly this purpose, despite of his lack of a legitimate claim (in comparison to Asheviere and Li'sar, at least).

I'm not saying orcs are the good guys and elves the bad guys, but the elves do seem to have a reputation for treachery, and I sense a lot of political maneuvering. They're definitely somewhat arrogant (not out of character for classical fantasy elves), they also seem to be firmly opposed to slavery, and they clearly want to get rid of a tyrant who runs the country in a way they don't like. But they're not staging a people's uprising against the corrupt rulers, they're propping up their own puppet as a replacement, and try to create legitimacy for his claim to the throne.

Konrad is not the legitimate heir. He doesn't "deserve" to be on the throne. However, the current ruler clearly needs to go, and Konrad is the only member of the royal family over whom the elves have any control. They raised him, presumably by their values, so they trust him to run the country in a way more suited to elvish tastes (although he doesn't come across as very suitable for rulership to me). However, with proper guidance by Delfador and Kalensz, the boy might amount to something.

I'm not saying the elves are power hungry war-mongers, although it might sound like that if you put my comments next to some of the more extreme ones. The elves do want power, though. Power to get rid of the current queen who sends orcs into their precious forests. They want a ruler who respects the elvish ways, or, failing that, at least someone who leaves them alone. Supporting a potential heir's claim to the throne and creating legitimacy for that claim is their best chance of getting that.

All I'm saying is, it is, in my opinion of course, not simply a story of the rightful heir fighting his way to the top and the friendly elves helping him. It looks like that on the surface, but a level deeper, there seems to be all sorts of politics involved. It's not just Konrad versus Asheviere, there's other people involved. People that might be swayed by whoever holds the Sceptre of Fire (which just hapens to be Li'sar in my current game). And the people who do support Konrad don't do so because he's the rightful heir, because he simply isn't. They support him because they don't like Asheviere, and they prefer to have someone outside her inflience on the throne. With everybody else being dead, that makes Konrad their only option. Unless it turns out that Li'sar can be reasoned with.

I don't care much for the superficial Black versus White thing. I do care about all the shades of grey and the political maneuvering, and I think those are the most interesting parts of the story, and the story would get more interesting with more emphasis on those parts.
Velensk
Multiplayer Contributor
Posts: 3991
Joined: January 24th, 2007, 12:56 am

Re: Heir to the Throne rant/idea suggestion

Post by Velensk »

You may see alot of complex political moves and such, however I'm pretty sure that wasn't what the person who wrote the campaign was thinking about. You may claim to not care about "superficial" black vs white, however that was more the additude that the story takes than any sort of intrigue.

You give the example of going out to get the scepter of fire to solidify your claim. I imagine that the reason this was written into the story was to get some cave action/dwarves, and justified by the other stuff.

However if you want the politics of why people accept Konrad even though he isn't the rightful heir, then you missed something in the epilogue
Spoiler:
"There are two kinds of old men in the world. The kind who didn't go to war and who say that they should have lived fast died young and left a handsome corpse and the old men who did go to war and who say that there is no such thing as a handsome corpse."
mcv
Posts: 52
Joined: March 25th, 2009, 12:47 pm

Re: Heir to the Throne rant/idea suggestion

Post by mcv »

Velensk wrote:You may see alot of complex political moves and such, however I'm pretty sure that wasn't what the person who wrote the campaign was thinking about. You may claim to not care about "superficial" black vs white, however that was more the additude that the story takes than any sort of intrigue.
But that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with improving upon the story, is there?
You give the example of going out to get the scepter of fire to solidify your claim. I imagine that the reason this was written into the story was to get some cave action/dwarves, and justified by the other stuff.
Nonetheless, according to the story, getting the Sceptre is important enough to face the immense dangers down there. Of course you don't have to care about the story. It's first and foremost an excuse to get you into some fun scenarios. I did that too, at first. It's a wargame -- who cares about story? But if you do have a story, then wouldn't it be more fun if it's an interesting story rather than a lame one?
However if you want the politics of why people accept Konrad even though he isn't the rightful heir, then you missed something in the epilogue
I haven't actually gotten that far yet. I have gotten to the point where Delfador or Kalenz (I forgot who suggested it) emphasized the need to get that Sceptre, in order to get the people to accept Konrad as heir. Whether their plan is successful in the end doesn't matter.
User avatar
Turuk
Sithslayer
Posts: 5283
Joined: February 28th, 2007, 8:58 pm
Contact:

Re: Heir to the Throne rant/idea suggestion

Post by Turuk »

mcv wrote:I haven't actually gotten that far yet. I have gotten to the point where Delfador or Kalenz (I forgot who suggested it) emphasized the need to get that Sceptre, in order to get the people to accept Konrad as heir. Whether their plan is successful in the end doesn't matter.
So you have not finished the entire campaign yet? I would do so first, as the scenarios in the later part of the game have much more impact on the plot line.

I don't know that the elves particularly want power at all, at least over the throne, but I agree with you about their motives on just wanting a ruler in place that will leave them alone. Evil Asheviere or not, their concern is that she engages in practices that they find abhorrent and she has been harassing/trespassing into their land, which shatters their isolation as they had previously enjoyed it. Seeing that Konrad could be made to have a claim to the throne, and that they don't know that just getting rid of Asheviere and having Li'sar might not be more of the same, they come up with a plan to get rid of the Queen and put Konrad in her place as, since he was raised among elves, he is going to be much more favorable towards their desires. Once he's in place, I doubt they would try to manipulate him as a puppet master for the power.
Mainline Maintainer: AOI, DM, NR, TB and THoT.
UMC Maintainer: Forward They Cried, A Few Logs, A Few More Logs, Start of the War, and Battle Against Time
Joram
Posts: 366
Joined: September 2nd, 2008, 5:36 am

Re: Heir to the Throne rant/idea suggestion

Post by Joram »

You have a good point about Konrad not being the legitimate heir.

However, is Ashaviere even a legitimate ruler? I don't pretend to know much on the subject, but I don't believe it was customary in medieval times when a ruler died for his/her spouse or mother to ascend to the throne.

If we look at it from the perspective that Ashaviere and her son were rebels, killing the rightful king, then it could be that they and their lines lost legitimacy because they were the enemies of the King and his line. In which case, Konrad is the rightful heir.

So I guess the basis of our difference is whether Konrad is, or is not, the rightful heir. If he isn't, then most of your comments apply, and this isn't just a matter of the friendly elves helping the rightful heir. But it is my opinion that he is.


You also make a good point about the elves not staging a people's uprising, instead trying to set up their own ruler.

However, every rebellion needs a leader. Someone who can inspire confidence and hold things together. I don't think that the Elves would have much success in inspiring the common people of Wesnoth. Delfador is a candidate, and he already tried once. But it would be much easier for common people to suspect an Archmage of selfish motives, and much harder for Delfador to connect with the common people.

So the way I see it is that Delfador is training up that leader. Trying to create a person who can inspire loyalty and confidence in the people.

Of course, the effect is rather ruined by the fact that Konrad is rather a baby at the start, and there isn't anything later on that gives the message of significant improvement (I agree with you that he doesn't seem very suitable for leadership). This is one of those aspects I think that should be changed in the campaign. Konrad needs to display some assertiveness and leadership. You have 2 scenarios where he is separated from Delfador, but then Delfy comes right back and everything is like it was before.

You say that people support Konrad because they don't like Ashaviere. Well, that in my book, is reason enough, and I don't need to make a big production of it. I don't see the need to go any farther than: 1) The current government is harsh and tryannical, and 2) that Konrad is the closest heir that will amend the current state of the government. It is my belief that tyranny must be opposed, and any tyrants forfeit their right to the crown. This means that if you are going to stick with the kings line, then Konrad is heir.

Of course, I think that the story would be just as good if Konrad weren't at all related to the crown, and just set out to start a rebellion among the people (though that would again require Konrad taking the lead, not following Delfador's lead all the time). But stories like that are told in Liberty and Northern Rebirth.


I personally think that the story should be improved as well. However, I would do it by making more character development in Konrad, and by fixing all of the inconsistent and conflicting dialogue that Li'sar gets, rather than changing the focus of the story.


When you say you'd like more emphasis on the political maneuvering aspects of things, what did you have in mind? I'm not sure where you would go with that sort of line.
The Fires of Pride 0.3, a heavily story based campaign.
On hold while I try and finish my book
User avatar
Zachron
Posts: 416
Joined: July 24th, 2007, 5:12 pm
Location: North Central Texas
Contact:

Re: Heir to the Throne rant/idea suggestion

Post by Zachron »

Not to mention that, once the elves actually saw Li'sar in person, they had a change of heart over who they felt would best carry their agendas to pass. This implies that, as self serving as their agendas might have been, they still saw it in the best interest of the common good that the legitimate line of succession be maintained. And as self serving as the elves seem to be, they will often put the common good ahead of their own self interests, and I think this is a duality that reflects the seemingly duplicitous nature of the elves in Wesnoth. They are both heroic and flawed, and they see themselves as the policing entity of the continent, making them a very believable entity, with a history not that unlike a very real nation in this world. *coUSAgh* It's not that the elves are simply self-serving, it's that they arrogantly believe that they have the best picture of the common good of all. Perhaps one is right to distrust the elves of Wesnoth. :roll:
Project Battlescar: An rpg engine of my own design.
http://battlescar.wikispaces.com/
User avatar
Orcish Shyde
Posts: 303
Joined: October 13th, 2008, 6:13 pm

Re: Heir to the Throne rant/idea suggestion

Post by Orcish Shyde »

Zachron wrote:Not to mention that, once the elves actually saw Li'sar in person, they had a change of heart over who they felt would best carry their agendas to pass. This implies that, as self serving as their agendas might have been, they still saw it in the best interest of the common good that the legitimate line of succession be maintained. And as self serving as the elves seem to be, they will often put the common good ahead of their own self interests, and I think this is a duality that reflects the seemingly duplicitous nature of the elves in Wesnoth. They are both heroic and flawed, and they see themselves as the policing entity of the continent, making them a very believable entity, with a history not that unlike a very real nation in this world. *coUSAgh* It's not that the elves are simply self-serving, it's that they arrogantly believe that they have the best picture of the common good of all. Perhaps one is right to distrust the elves of Wesnoth. :roll:
You make a good case, and indeed the elves have their heroic moments - the easy branch of EI, when elves actually help you against a common enemy; pretty much the entirety of UtbS; their appearance in TSG, although this is mitigated by their utter lack of any concept of "forgiveness" for the outlaws who hardly knew the crime they were committing; and AOI, to name what I can think of off the top of my head.

However, your case suffers from the fact that, once Li'sar is in on the plan, the elves actually lose very little by backing her instead of Konrad - they still have a Queen who would support the measures they want, or at least leave them be, without having to convince anyone to support an heir of questionable parentage.
Joram wrote:You have a good point about Konrad not being the legitimate heir.

However, is Ashaviere even a legitimate ruler? I don't pretend to know much on the subject, but I don't believe it was customary in medieval times when a ruler died for his/her spouse or mother to ascend to the throne.
The legitimate ruler was Li'sar as of the death/murder/execution (take your pick) of Eldred - but Li'sar was only three years old, and pretty much every noble except Asheviere had a motive to bump off the last living descendant of King Garard II - it's a lot easier to have a puppet-King when the puppet is old enough to actually BE the King, and some of Konrad's brothers would have been old enough to be active players in such a plot to usurp little Li'sar's crown. In that light, their assassination - even preemptively - becomes more understandable, not just as a tyrant seeking power, but also as a mother protecting her child.

Sure, Asheviere doesn't exactly play the loving mama bear in the final battle for Wesnoth, but seeing your loved one at the head of an army come to overthrow you is bound to strain any relationship.

@Joram It is not exactly arrogant to suggest that being visited by the royalty of Wesnoth is an honour, which is indeed all that Li'sar pointed out - though she could perhaps have worded it more diplomatically. It's an event that has a near-zero chance of happening for nearly every being in Irdya after all.
Li'sar wrote:I might also say that it is you who are honored. It has been so long since you have been graced by the presence of a princess of Wesnoth.
Shameless Crossover Excuse
Necromancer (campaign)

You are a Dwarvish Berserker: you're freaking crazy and enjoy it.
Joram
Posts: 366
Joined: September 2nd, 2008, 5:36 am

Re: Heir to the Throne rant/idea suggestion

Post by Joram »

@Orcish_Shyde

Li'sar the heir
It is true that Li'sar was the next in line, but one could look at it as she was affiliated with a rebellion against the true king (her father). While she had no part in it, she was affiliated with, and supporting, the ones who did. That takes away her eligibility.

Your argument about Ashaviere's motives for assassination bring me back to something I said earlier.
Joram wrote: Just because things can be explained away doesn't mean that you have evidence that they aren't true.
You said in your first post that you felt that HttT was being told by an unreliable narrator. And quite frankly, I have little sympathy with such a view. As I said earlier, I don't play Wesnoth to enjoy the opportunity of reading from a history book, I play Wesnoth so I can go on an adventure. First person. Not history, NOW.

Also, you don't have much reason to doubt the accuracy of the history other than that... you have an alternate explanation.

I have an alternate explanation as well: Ashaviere was ordered by this giant slab of moon cheese to do everything she did, or it would smother the entire country and kill everyone. Therefore, Ashaviere was just saving the lives of all her citizens.

But an alternate explanation doesn't make it true.

You say that we have no evidence that she committed any crimes, other than the word of the story-teller. Well as this is a story, not a history book, the word of the story teller is truth. Even in those books where the author purportedly got his information from an ancient text (Lord of the Rings, anyone?), one doesn't read with a critical eye, trying to find out if the author is reliable or not (as it is all fiction, what is the point?).

Which, of course, is all a matter of personal preference. You and I will just have to differ on this one.


Now, if the point of all of your explanations is that you would like more evidence of Ashaviere's evilness in the story, then that is fine. I wouldn't be opposed to it, and would actually welcome it.



But when it comes down to it, you explained away her enslavement of the mermen, so any other display of "evilness" could just as easily be explained away. In fact, your "they were rebels opposing the lawful queen" argument is a catch-all. It can be used anywhere.

The only way to dispel that argument is to say that she was not the lawful queen; i.e., that she was a part of the rebellion against the true king. But the only way to do that is for the narrator to say that she was. And you have apparently decided that the narrator cannot be trusted.

So you are in the happy position of having an argument for all cases which can only be dispelled by the narrator of the campaign, who you have decided has no real authority on the issue. Which is why I think that your choice to disregard the eye-witness testimony of all the characters is rather silly.

Eye-witnesses who claim that Ashaviere was a tyrant:
Delfador
Any number of elves
The mage on the Isle of Anduin
The Merman
The people of Elensfar (your argument actually doesn't apply here, because Elensfar is not a part of Wesnoth, so was not obliged to recognize Ashaviere as their queen; so why did Ashaviere attack it?)
The people of the Northern Rebirth Campaign

I am now introducing... Ockham's Razor!!!

When two theories are in other respects equal, the one with the fewest assumptions is likely the most accurate.

The story currently has one assumption: Everyone is telling the truth.

Your version has innumerable:
The narrator was lying or misinformed when he made statements like Ashaviere was a tyrant
The merman were rebels
The orcs acted on their own to suppress the rebels in a manner Ashaviere wouldn't have liked
Ashaviere advised her son to fight Delfador so that her son would be killed
Ashaviere murdered a bunch of people out of concern for her daughter
The law justified imprisoning the mage on the Isle of Anduin (anytime the government restricts something, you need to think carefully about it)
There was justification for attacking Elensfar (I don't remember what you thought it was)
The orcs in the Northern Rebirth were acting in a manner Ashaviere wouldn't have liked

Therefore, by Ockham's Razor, your version is rather baseless.


Like I said, I wouldn't be opposed to make Ash more evil. But when it comes down to it, anything can be explained away by a determined person. I could easily compose a justification for everything Sauron did (or rather, was accused of doing) in the Lord of the Rings. But to insist that such a justification shows that Sauron needs to be made more evil is rather pointless.

I think that that is about all I can say on the subject. I therefore think that I won't say anymore. If I kept hammering the subject, people would probably just start getting tense. And I'd rather avoid unpleasantness. :)

Like someone earlier said, if you want to imagine you are playing someone evil, go ahead. :wink:


Oh, and about Li'sar being arrogant, I think that your take isn't quite accurate. Li'sar was:
1- A guest
2- A guest whom the elves had no reason to like or respect, being affiliated with their enemies
3- A guest whom the elves had no reason to like or respect, being affiliated with their enemies, and who was at the moment indebted to the elves for her life

Furthermore, the implication of Li'sar's statement is that "I am better than you" (as in, you're honored more than I am).

Considering the above three points, is that, or is that not, rather arrogant? If someone who didn't particularly like you saved your life, and took you into the shelter of his home, I don't think your first thought would be about how honored he is to have you there, even if you were somebody important. Some humble gratitude would be more fitting.
The Fires of Pride 0.3, a heavily story based campaign.
On hold while I try and finish my book
User avatar
Jetrel
Art Director
Posts: 7242
Joined: February 23rd, 2004, 3:36 am
Location: Midwest US

Re: Heir to the Throne rant/idea suggestion

Post by Jetrel »

Orcish Shyde wrote:5. Yes, I hate seeing elves portrayed as unquestionably superior to humans when both are major players. Up until the Victorians, nobody ever said elves were nice, never mind 'just better'. Even in LOTR, they are seriously considering abandoning humans to Sauron's conquest.
HttT was slightly written in a much earlier "cosmology" of wesnoth, when we were considering making elves far more titanic than they currently are. Not to mention being immortal and too smart to be evil - at least in a petty way. (There are plenty of interesting story possibilities for them to be evil in a more overarching way, such as deciding that humans are evil like orcs, and deciding to wipe them out.) I mean, basically they might have been our protoss, sans the "lack of adaptability" weak spot the latter so infamously/aggravatingly has. As it turned out, our elves are just sylvan humanoids who have a substantial amount of ability with "intuitive" magic, and are rather longer lived than humans.


I don't mind seeing elves portrayed as categorically "better" than humans, so long as you actually do it correctly. Our "mix and match" [censored] has to go, though - if we're not doing the elves as "a race of supermen", then we need to decidedly choose to do them as a race of sylvans/faerie folk. We need to choose and direct our decision at it (I'm as guilty as anyone, being a major description-writer, and I've unfortunately produced a good deal of writing that's little better than elf-fap).


For interests sake, it's worth noting that wesnoth was originally gonna be just elves versus orcs, and in that version both were sister species. So it was almost "elves and bad-elves".
Play Frogatto & Friends - a finished, open-source adventure game!
User avatar
Orcish Shyde
Posts: 303
Joined: October 13th, 2008, 6:13 pm

Re: Heir to the Throne rant/idea suggestion

Post by Orcish Shyde »

Joram wrote:(Too long; not copying)
You hit it right on the nail, and indeed I mentioned earlier that I'd like to see HTTT redone to make Asheviere more of a villain. As it is, she's mentioned a bunch, but appears precisely once and has a legitimate reason to fight the army at her gates - it's come to kill her, and is led by the traitor Delfador and the pretender Konrad.

Furthermore, with the story as currently written, Asheviere is no more affiliated with Eldred's rebellion than Garard was - a parent of the prodigal child. She just has the good fortune to not be the target of that rebellion, and the common sense not to directly oppose her son after seeing he'd kill his own father to get at the throne. Similarly, Li'sar is no more affiliated with Eldred than are all their other siblings, who Eldred is also stated to have killed at the ford of Abez as part of his bid for power; she just has the good fortune to have been far too young at the time to be in battle, never mind under a banner opposed to her big bwuv.

Li'sar says outright that she, not her mother, is the lawful queen when she's deciding to join the rebellion. This could be part of why she followed Konrad so far - maybe she wants the Sceptre of Fire for herself, so she can use it to take her rightful throne, given she no longer needs Asheviere's protection. This is conjecture, not fact, but if it could be explored without making the plot too dense, it would explain a lot.

Grounding for the retaking of Elensefar is shaky indeed - but originally it was part of Wesnoth, and at least someone is going to have wanted it to return to the fold.

As turin pointed out, HTTT is told by an unreliable narrator - it states at the beginning that Delfador saved the real Konrad, then directly contradicts itself on this point at the end. One outright, indisputable falsehood is enough to put everything he says into dispute. However...

What I'd like to see is a little patching of the "unreliable narrator" and "Asheviere not evil" problems. The former could be solved if "Konrad" knows, from the beginning, that he is a pretender; the latter is, I think, as simple as swapping a few copy/paste orcish leaders for Asheviere herself. That shouldn't be a dark sorcerer helping the orcs in Siege of Elensefar; it should be the Dark Queen, albeit teleporting away when "killed" for plot reasons.

What I'd love to see, but will likely never happen due to effort involved, is a whole side-branch where Konrad temporarily decides to take his chances working for Asheviere, taking command of Loyalist troops and doing a bunch of missions as the Queen's puppet, with intent to stab her in the back rather than invade her from the front... but that would take a LOT of balancing and writing, not least to make it eventually end in a "historically correct" fashion with the death of Asheviere and the ascendance of Li'sar.
Jetryl wrote:....
"Too smart to be evil"? No such concept - smarter might make you realise moral ramifications, but it doesn't stop you from just not caring about them, or from using your high intellect to further your dark ambitions in a way that less smart people simply wouldn't be able to. Emperor Palpatine, for example.

I hereby volunteer myself to rewrite any elf descriptions I think are just too "ELVEZ R GRATE LOLZ" in nature. This will probably involve removing concepts like their supposedly looking down on the art of destructive usage of faerie fire, and certainly less fappish descriptions of the Elvish Fighter lines.
Shameless Crossover Excuse
Necromancer (campaign)

You are a Dwarvish Berserker: you're freaking crazy and enjoy it.
Joram
Posts: 366
Joined: September 2nd, 2008, 5:36 am

Re: Heir to the Throne rant/idea suggestion

Post by Joram »

Jetryl wrote: For interests sake, it's worth noting that wesnoth was originally gonna be just elves versus orcs, and in that version both were sister species. So it was almost "elves and bad-elves".
Wow. :shock:

EDIT: Orcish Shyde posted while I was typing.

Like I said, I'm not going to keep hitting things, but I would like to say that I think that the inconsistency between the narrator and the actual truth shouldn't be used as grounds for doubting it. It is part of the story, so needed to be included like it was.

Of course, one could just change the narration to something like: "Shortly after the queen had given her order, Delfador took refuge with the elves of wherever. With him was a young child. He told them that this was the young prince Konrad, who he had managed to save from Ashaviere, killing the guards who were supposed to perform the deed, that word of the rescue might not reach Ashaviere immediately. Thus, Prince Konrad was raised with the elves..." etc.
The Fires of Pride 0.3, a heavily story based campaign.
On hold while I try and finish my book
User avatar
Turuk
Sithslayer
Posts: 5283
Joined: February 28th, 2007, 8:58 pm
Contact:

Re: Heir to the Throne rant/idea suggestion

Post by Turuk »

Orcish Shyde wrote:As turin pointed out, HTTT is told by an unreliable narrator - it states at the beginning that Delfador saved the real Konrad, then directly contradicts itself on this point at the end. One outright, indisputable falsehood is enough to put everything he says into dispute
If the narrator is merely an outside voice telling the past events (in the beginning) and then the other events that are happening as they occur, wouldn't the narrator find out that Konrad was a fake at the exact same time? It seems to be told from one of the characters or someone who was close to the events as they happen. The narrator does not appear to be omniscient given that the story is told on one side.

Anyways, why not actually draft up the changes to the dialogue as you see fit that you think would clear the issue one way or another, or even both ways, and then submit it here?
Mainline Maintainer: AOI, DM, NR, TB and THoT.
UMC Maintainer: Forward They Cried, A Few Logs, A Few More Logs, Start of the War, and Battle Against Time
Joram
Posts: 366
Joined: September 2nd, 2008, 5:36 am

Re: Heir to the Throne rant/idea suggestion

Post by Joram »

Turuk wrote: Anyways, why not actually draft up the changes to the dialogue as you see fit that you think would clear the issue one way or another, or even both ways, and then submit it here?
Excellent idea.

I'm actually planning on rewriting some of the dialogue of some of the mainline campaigns, if I ever get the time, and seeing what people think of my talents.

I've lurked long enough to learn that when it comes to Wesnoth, if you want something done, you need to do it yourself. :wink:
The Fires of Pride 0.3, a heavily story based campaign.
On hold while I try and finish my book
Post Reply