Heir to the Throne rant/idea suggestion

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Turuk
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Re: Heir to the Throne rant/idea suggestion

Post by Turuk »

Velensk wrote:I still don't see how it matters, and I still don't see why it's worth looking beyound the text to make a case out of it. If you want to convince yourself that you're evil in HttT or any other Wesnoth campaign that's your problem.
Ding ding.

Reading this much into limited lines of text seems a bit extreme, but that's also kind of the point. However a player wants to view the story, taking it as it is or putting their own spin on it, that's up to them. Developing so much angst over it and writing epic posts in an attempt to convince others seems a bit much.
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Re: Heir to the Throne rant/idea suggestion

Post by mcv »

It's not about good or evil, it's about story and politics.

Anyway, the fact tat I'm playing the wannabe usurper is not something I need to convince myself of. It's right there in the story.
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Re: Heir to the Throne rant/idea suggestion

Post by Turuk »

Right, but our point would be that if that's your take on it, that's great. But repeatedly trying to convince others of that it is so serves little purpose as everyone is welcome to their own interpretation.
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Re: Heir to the Throne rant/idea suggestion

Post by mcv »

I'm sorry. I didn't know story was considered off topic here.

I'm not repeatedly trying to convince anyone, I'm just pointing something out in a thread that seemed to discuss that very topic. If that thread is considered inappropriate for this forum, then please lock it.
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Re: Heir to the Throne rant/idea suggestion

Post by Turuk »

If you can turn the dramatics off for a second, you will note that I said:
Turuk wrote:everyone is welcome to their own interpretation.
I did not say you could not post more on the idea here, or that it was inappropriate, I was just pointing out that posting long accounts of why you feel that things are this way or that way is fine, but just don't expect anyone to care too much about character debates from speculated knowledge.
Turuk wrote:Asheviere could be evil or good, she could be behind everything that happened and have been the driving force in the murder of innocents, or a ambitious queen whose son gets out of hands and whose mercenaries take matters into their own hands.

The problem is that there are no facts to prove it either way, other than trying to draw inferences from the dialogue between the characters. Given most people's reliance on rationalization while pursuing a course of action that may be questionable, Konrad could be convincing himself what he does is right and good against the lawful Queen, or the power-hungry Queen is convinced that she is innocent and just defending herself from all that she sees as threats to her "rightful" power.
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Re: Heir to the Throne rant/idea suggestion

Post by mcv »

If nobody cares, then what exactly is this discussion about? Why repeatedly badgering someone with "you're free to your own opinion"?

I don't see what point that could possibly serve. Either say it's inappropriate and stop it right there, or decide it's okay and let it go.

I'm just trying to share some interesting thoughts here. If you don't think it's interesting, ignore it. If you disagree with this viewpoint, then please share why. If you think it's not an apropriate topic of discussion, then please say so. But attacking someone with his right to his own opinion is kind of pointless.
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Re: Heir to the Throne rant/idea suggestion

Post by Turuk »

mcv wrote:But attacking someone with his right to his own opinion is kind of pointless.
You assume that I am attacking you when, if you read my posts, you will realize I have done nothing of the sort and that none of my comments are directed at you personally at all.
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Re: Heir to the Throne rant/idea suggestion

Post by mcv »

You mean you didn't write this?
Turuk wrote:Right, but our point would be that if that's your take on it, that's great. But repeatedly trying to convince others of that it is so serves little purpose as everyone is welcome to their own interpretation.
I try to make an interesting, reasoned point with historical comparisons in reaction to an (admittedly old) discussion on somewhat related (but not quite identical) ideas, hoping that my ideas will spark new ideas in others. Instead of some interesting speculation, I get responses saying (paraphrasing): "Who cares? If you've got interesting ideas, that's your problem, and others have a right to their own views unpoluted by your ideas."

Frankly I find that a rather disgusting attitude and the death of all exchange of ideas.

Convincing others has nothing to do with it. It's about free exchange of ideas. Is that really such a foreign concept around here?

And if it isn't, then can we please get back to exchanging ideas again, accept that this was all just a big misunderstanding, and step away from the trainwreck?
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Re: Heir to the Throne rant/idea suggestion

Post by Turuk »

You will notice that when I used "your" I also used "our" meaning that I was not referring to you or myself but to the general use of the words. It, again, was not directed at you.

As you chose to interpret and paraphrase my response to suit your argument, what is there to respond to? The "Who cares?" attitude interpretation was one that you compiled yourself.

This thread is not quite a exchange of ideas but an exchange of opinions, and, as I previously stated:
Turuk wrote:everyone is welcome to their own interpretation.
Also, if you are interested in dropping something and moving on, I would suggest in the future that you not try to get the last word in by telling someone that you think they have a disgusting attitude and believe that they contribute to the death of all exchange of ideas. Pointed accusations at an individual are rarely effective as they tend to draw the other person back into said argument.
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Re: Heir to the Throne rant/idea suggestion

Post by mcv »

Please read the responses in this thread after my first post again, then ask yourself what kind of impression that gives.

And if "repeatedly trying to convince others of that it is so serves little purpose" was not aimed at me, then why was it posted in reaction to my message, with no other messages between that and your previous message?

And you're right that this thread isn't an exchange of ideas right now, but I would really very much like it to be. Because I do think these are interesting ideas. They gives the story of HttT a much deeper layer, as well as a cool reversal of tropes that I would otherwise personally consider tired and old. It gets me more out of the game, and I think these ideas deserve further exploration.

And if they could be implemented in an ambiguous way so that people who prefer the traditional cliches can still recognise the familiar story of Good versus Evil, then everybody wins.
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Re: Heir to the Throne rant/idea suggestion

Post by Turuk »

mcv wrote:And if "repeatedly trying to convince others of that it is so serves little purpose" was not aimed at me, then why was it posted in reaction to my message, with no other messages between that and your previous message?
http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=23421

In that same topic, this: http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic. ... 00#p346100 was split from another thread in which he hijacked with the same idea and merged into the main topic.

This HttT rant thread is the one that came before those, and so you can see the parallels that exist between them. So my repeatedly trying statement is to the fact that there has now been three threads about it (one merged into another to make two). Hence, not aimed at you.
mcv wrote:And you're right that this thread isn't an exchange of ideas right now, but I would really very much like it to be. Because I do think these are interesting ideas. They gives the story of HttT a much deeper layer, as well as a cool reversal of tropes that I would otherwise personally consider tired and old. It gets me more out of the game, and I think these ideas deserve further exploration.

And if they could be implemented in an ambiguous way so that people who prefer the traditional cliches can still recognise the familiar story of Good versus Evil, then everybody wins.
Well, if someone actually took the time to develop and map out the changes they would make to the entire campaign to reflect this, it would not be disregarded out of hand, but so far most users just note what they don't like and do not take a more proactive attitude like yourself. Making implications in the dialogue would have to be tastefully done and be consistent throughout the entire campaign.
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Re: Heir to the Throne rant/idea suggestion

Post by Dalkor »

This topic (pre-derailment, at least) interests me, almost as much as its twin about elvish nature. I'm giving minor thought to doing some UMC on the subject but I'd like to know the conventions regarding use of HttT content. I know the GPL allows me to wallpaper my room with whatever mainline I want, but I'm curious about social standards regarding modification of mainline into UMC. i.e. If I were to make a campaign from Asheviere & Co.'s point of view, I'd like to use the scenario where Konrad first fights Li'sar straight from HttT (with minor dialogue changes probably). Legal, I know, but tasteless or not?

And yes, I know it's a matter of opinion and I'm likely only going to get one or two, but I'm willing to work with that.
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Re: Heir to the Throne rant/idea suggestion

Post by Turuk »

Tasteless or not would depend on how it's done, but you should look up some of the work done by a user named markm who had a unique take on rewriting his version of HttT.
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Re: Heir to the Throne rant/idea suggestion

Post by Joram »

mcv wrote:Sorry to drop in so late, but I didn't play Wesnoth back in December. To me, as a newbie, it's already quite obvious that what's presented as rightful heir versus evil usurper is anything but that. If anything, it reminds me of the Wars of the Roses, the English civil war in the 15th century, which wasn't so much between several heirs to the throne, but really between several noble factions who wanted an heir they could control.

In THttT, the Elves behave exactly like that. For political reasons they can't rule all of Wesnoth themselves (becuase everybody knows they're a bunch of treacherous liars), so they need a puppet. Enter Konrad, too young to know any better, carefully handled by and old wizard who sympathizes with the Elvish cause. I haven't reached the Cliffs of Whatever yet, but if the elves are arrogant, it's obviously because they believe they should be the real power. It's painful enough that they need to prop up their human puppet for the throne. They certainly don't intend to treat humans as equals in their own home. Not when it's their puppet controlled by their own lackey.

This is also why Kalenz comes with them on the journey: to keep an eye on their investment. To keep Delfador on the right (Elvish) path.

The main opposing faction is Asheviere and the Orcs, although here it seems Asheviere is the one who's in control. Li'sar is clearly supposed to be their puppet, with which they'll sollidify their control over Wesnoth.

The only really odd thing to me is that Li'sar is commanding her own army and doesn't come with a handler, like Konrad. She's clearly not the best general that she's presented as -- she's just the most stupidly stubborn general. And she's as much a whiny kid as Konrad is, so why she doesn't have a handler with her is a mystery to me. Very sloppy of her faction to let her slip from their grasp like that. I don't know how the story continues yet, but I expect the Elves will be really glad to control a new heir with a more direct line to the throne (and she also has the Scepter in my case). If they manage to control her, cut her ties to her mother, and asign her a competent babysitter, Konrad's chances for the throne are gone.
If I may insert an opinion?

There seem to me to be two alternative viewpoints:

#1- Ashaviere is evil, and Delfador is trying to save Wesnoth from tyranny and oppression by putting Konrad on the throne.

#2 - As outlined above so eloquently by mcv.

So what support do both sides have?

mcv says that it is obvious that viewpoint #2 is correct. I disagree. From my perspective, there is only this to support that view:

1- The elves are arrogant
2- Konrad was raised by someone sympathetic to the elves, among the elves
3- Kalenz goes with them on their journey
4- Ashaviere has a corresponding puppet

If I may address all of these issues?

1- The elves are arrogant
All of Orcish Shyde's arguments against the character of the elves come from different campaigns; most of which happened at vastly different times in history. If you are going to go through the history books and cherry-pick cases where a particular people group did bad things, then no one is safe. I must also add that a lot of this stuff comes from campaign writers desire to have a large variety of opponents in their campaign; and also to break the cliche and present elves as less than perfect (it would be really bad if you were able to play through every Wesnoth campaign and never fight elves :wink: )

As far as showing arrogance in HttT, I never saw it. In the Elves Besieged, they present a spirit of selflessness and sacrifice, which someone who was just interested in protecting a puppet wouldn't show. (you could plead that these were the low level elves who weren't pushing the buttons).

Kalenz is nothing but civil and respectful except to a dwarf (when he had some provocation), and if Konrad chooses to go over the Cliffs of Thoria (again, with some provocation).

At the elven council, the only elven arrogance is when one elf makes the comment:
"Greetings, and welcome to our capital. You should feel honored. It has been half a century - a generation in the way your race counts time - since any man has been considered Elf-friend enough to stand here in Elensiria."

Is that arrogant? He is simply saying that the elves have given you their friendship, and that such a thing doesn't happen very often. If you want arrogance, just read Li'sar's reply. :)

2- Konrad was raised by someone sympathetic to the elves, among the elves
Delfador was affiliated solely with the Kingdom of Wesnoth prior to seeking refuge among the elves. He was just friends with them.

Just because you seek refuge with someone you know is your friend doesn't mean that you are sympathetic to their cause. During the very War of the Roses which you mention, various English nobles took refuge in France. Did that mean that they were sympathetic to the French cause? Or that they were working to put a French puppet on the throne?

It is also true that the elves that Konrad was raised with were not affiliated with the northern elves (of which Kalenz was a part).

When Delfador introduces Kalenz, he says that Kalenz came to the council to offer the support of the Northern elves. Meaning that prior to the council, the Northern elves were not involved. So Kalenz wasn't coming to protect an investment. If anything, Kalenz was coming to make an investment.

3- Kalenz goes with them on their journey to protect the investment

Again, the Northern elves hadn't invested anything. They were not involved in raising Konrad. Kalenz might have been involved in making an investment, but I don't see the evidence anywhere.

4- Ashaviere has a corresponding puppet
I'm not going to comment on this because I believe that the whole Li'sar thing needs some heavy redoing.


You can just say that it is historian bias, but imo, that is rather a ridiculous assumption. I am not playing this game with the thought that I am reading from some ancient text, I am playing this game with the thought that it is happening NOW. Meaning that biased historians haven't gotten their claws on it yet. Of course, that is my perspective.

As an exercise for those who believe that Ashaviere isn't evil (not referring to you, mcv), go through The Lord of the Rings and find the first evil act that can be attributed to Sauron that can't be explained away. Or even, for that matter, the Nazgul (hey, they never killed anyone in the Shire; all they were after was something that rightfully belonged to their master, right?)

Just because things can be explained away doesn't mean that you have evidence that they aren't true.

I would say that it is far from obvious what is going on. From my perspective, it is a bit of a stretch to even say that the storyline supports your view. I would say that it only does so if you want it to do so (that's not a criticism). Naturally, part of the reason that I think that the storyline supports my view is that I want it to as well.

Now, this is not to say that your idea isn't a possibility. However, I just don't feel inclined to believe that all of the characters are power-hungry schemers when there is another explanation (which, imo, is more consistent with the evidence).
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Re: Heir to the Throne rant/idea suggestion

Post by Dalkor »

Turuk wrote:look up some of the work done by a user named markm who had a unique take on rewriting his version of HttT.
After reading Markm's thread on Between the Worlds, I think I can say I've learned something new. I didn't know someone with that much acid in his system could use a computer. :shock:

For the record, I was talking about a largely original campaign that traces the activities of Asheviere and her allies/minions as a complement to HttT. Obviously a campaign like this could be used to portray the characters of HttT in a new light, so I thought that the folks here who take a different interpretation of the cast than the one given on the surface of the campaign might be interested in working on a campaign to turn their views into something more substantial than forum musings. The question about using HttT material was prompted by its obvious uses in a campaign so closely related.
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