A noob's take on ballance.

General feedback and discussion of the game.

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General Ludd
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Joined: June 27th, 2004, 5:01 pm

A noob's take on ballance.

Post by General Ludd »

I've played a few games as drakes against elves today and have come to the conclusion that elves are the best race, while drakes are the worst. :lol:


Seriously, some things to consider:



Elves:

Almost every unit has a ranged attack

Very good defense in most terrain, and especially forest.

A scout unit that moves 9 spaces (fastest in the game?) and can go through forest with no movement penalty.

Woses which are a mega-powerful melee unit and also capable of ambush and regeneration. (Granted, they are slow and weak to fire and have no ranged attack, but it seems odd to stick such a powerful melee unit in with the same race that has the best archers.)

Mermen, a very powerful melee unit for water.

Druids, capable of both slowing enemies and healing comrades.

...

Do they have any downsides?

They aren't the strongest melee fighters, but that's about it.



Drakes:

Most units have a very powerful ranged attack.

Many units that can fly over all terrain at no penalty.

A melee unit that has the choice of a blade or pierce attack.

A mage that not only has a magical cold attack but also a fire breath attack and a mediocre melee attack.

...

Their downsides?

Extremely poor defense, with the highest bonus possible being 40% for most units.

Their units cost a large amount.

The few regular-priced units they have lack any ranged attacks and have only average melee abilities.

The mages can strangely not fly over water, tundra, or swamp, despite being able to fly over everything else.



How do the two compare in combat?


For starters, to be equal in defense with an elf the drakes have to be in their most prefered terrain (hills & mountains) while the elf has to be in one of his least prefered (grasslands) this puts them both at 40% defense. If the elf moved onto the hills (which is supposedly the drake's prefered terrain) he actually has a higher defense value than the drakes, at 50%

Extremely frustrating.



But, you say, you can fly! you can out manouvere the elves and force them to play by your rules! This is true in mountains but, again, the elves actually have a higher defense than you do in mountains and hills so it actually becomes preferable to "hold the line" at the edge of the mountains rather than leading them around and engaging them at will, as you would think you should do.

But what about water, you say? Yes, I thought this would be the ideal scenario. Being able to fly out into an ocean or lake for sanctuary or to outflank the opponent. Only... they have mermen. Fighting mermen in the water is almost as bad - perhaps even worse - than fighting elves in the forest. They do massive amounts of piercing damage (which drakes are susceptable to) and have 70%/60% defense bonus for shallow and deep water respectively, while drakes get a whoping 20% and 10%


And, again, I remind you that the elvish scout units can move at 9 squares (and have no penalties in forest) while the petite drakes can only move 7.

So, to recap: Despite being able to fly, the drakes can only out-manouver elves in mountains and water. Yet, they are still at a disadvantage to the elves in terms of defense even though those are supposed to be the least prefered terrain of the elves and the most prefered terrain of the drakes.



What I think should be different about these two races?

Elves:

Reduce the speed of the scout to 7

Lower their defense in hills to 40% and in mountains to 20% (They've got to have some terrain that they're no good in.

Remove the merman and perhaps replace it with a flying unit (a pegasus rider?) if it's absoultely neccisary to have the capability of traversing deep water.

Drakes:

Raise the defense in shallow/deep water to 30/20% and raise the defense in mountains to 60%

Increase the speed of the petite drake to 9 and the Drake Fighter to 6

Allow the the mage to fly over water and tundra like all the other flying units. (what's the point of out-manouvering the enemy when you have to leave your mages behind?)
MadMax
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Post by MadMax »

Agreed. How's this for the Pegasus Rider? However, I originally designed this for the Loyalists.

Code: Select all

[unit]
name=Pegasus Rider
race=human
image=human-pegasus-rider.png
hitpoints=45
movement_type=fly
movement=7
experience=500
level=1
alignment=lawful
advanceto=null
cost=42
usage=fighter
unit_description="These soldiers are the elite of the human army. Extending human power to the skies, they ride the mighty Pegasi, raining death from above with their bows."
get_hit_sound=groan.wav
	[attack]
	name=hooves
	type=impact
	range=short
	damage=7
	number=2
		[sound]
		time=-200
		sound=horse-canter.wav
		[/sound]
	[/attack]

	[attack]
	name=longbow
	type=pierce
	range=long
	damage=6
	number=3

		[sound]
		time=-100
		sound=firearrow.wav
		[/sound]

		[sound]
		time=0
		sound=arrow-hit.wav
		sound_miss=arrow-miss.wav
		[/sound]

		[missile_frame]
		begin=-100
		end=0
		image=missile-n.png
		image_diagonal=missile-ne.png
		[/missile_frame]
	[/attack]
[/unit]
PS. If you want to get better at the drakes try my campaign :wink: .
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Neoriceisgood
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Post by Neoriceisgood »

You're absolutely right, drakes are currently very unbalanced and I hope I can manage to fix this by still keeping them the way they're supposed to be. I think that drakes are realy good warriors, if it wasn't for the fact that they have a common weakness + overall bad defences, but I personaly prefer them to be better in mountains than elves; or at least equal in defence. for the water part, drakes HATE water; and the only reason to go in water; is if you'd be 100% sure that it'd be a better choise than staying ashore. now the mages can't actualy fly at the first level, if you look at their graphics you might notice that their wings are practicaly half the size of the fighter and burner, wich simply means that they don't have fully grown wings yet; but if it's realy needed; they might be able to fly, and the clashers wings might be removed to make sure no-one confuses them for flyers. Another thing is that I want to make a few changes like giving the slaves a level 0 REALY cheap pre-level that takes little exp to turn into a slave as "living shield" for your more expensive warriors.

Perhaps the petit should be a bit till alot faster, as it's pretty expensive for what it's capable off; and some people say they prefer bats over petits who are faster, cost no upkeep and have drain (but less hp and only 2 attacks)
AT
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once

Post by AT »

Once you figure out how to use them, drakes arn't really that unbalanced. But still, they are a little weak.

So are dwarves, still.

Northerners are fine; scary even.

Elves, pretty much ok too.

Loyalists.. After reducing LVL 2 power, i think they have taken a hit.

Undead; not too bad.

But dwarves and drakes is where the work need to go.
Gandalf-"I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the Flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udun. Go back to the Shadow. You cannot pass!"
AT- "That sounds like more trouble than it's worth."
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Post by Neoriceisgood »

Dwarves are currently still a rag'tag bunch and can't realy be balanced until it turns into the actual dwarven faction.
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Post by Stosswelle »

everyone who has played with me in multi knows which race i think is really overpowered and i use them and well... the rest goes without saying

im not saying which because i love that theyre so ridiculously good

theres 2 races which are laughably weak
2 which are ok
and 2 which are amazingly powerful
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CapTVK
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Post by CapTVK »

Neoriceisgood wrote:You're absolutely right, drakes are currently very unbalanced and I hope I can manage to fix this by still keeping them the way they're supposed to be.

...
Another thing is that I want to make a few changes like giving the slaves a level 0 REALY cheap pre-level that takes little exp to turn into a slave as "living shield" for your more expensive warriors.

I like the idea of a cheap Drake unit evolving into living shield. It's a tactical in-game solution for game balancing. Far better than solving it by tweaking units (which results in unit B needing a tweak, and then C and then...etc...).
AT
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id

Post by AT »

I'd actually like to see trolls cost about 2 gold more; its a pain in the rear when a northerner churns trolls.
Gandalf-"I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the Flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udun. Go back to the Shadow. You cannot pass!"
AT- "That sounds like more trouble than it's worth."
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Post by Dave »

IMO Loyalists, Rebels, and Northerners are generally pretty 'balanced'.

I think the biggest problem though, rather than any single faction being overpowered, is that there are too many cases where 'faction X slaughters faction Y', even if there are other factions that can slaughter faction X.

I agree that Rebels are very powerful against Drakes, largely because the Rebels have very good sources of piercing attacks, which Drakes are susceptible to. You can't just make Drakes more powerful, because this will make them too powerful compared to some other factions that don't have such good piercing attacks. You can't just make Rebels weaker, because that'll make them too weak against races that aren't so susceptible to piercing attacks.

That's basically why 'balancing' things out is going to be difficult. It's also a reason why I don't really want to add more factions. We want to make it so that 'for any reasonable map, faction X will have a good chance of defeating faction Y, if both players are equally skilled'. The more factions, the more combinations of X and Y there are, and so the harder it is to balance.

David
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AT
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balance

Post by AT »

Don't we want to make it so Faction X and Faction Y, if exactly equally skilled, will never beat each other?
(for all values of X and Y)

Otherwise it becomes a rock-paper-scissors match in the game lobby. My first post on this forum was on this topic, i think. EDIT: Can't find it. But the point was this:

Back in the day, there was a RTS that Team A beat Team B, and B beat C, and C beat A. (by 'beat' i mean was strong against). What would happen is that people would be playing rock-paper-scissors in the game lobby. Someone would choose A, the other then would pick C. A would change to B, the C to A, etc.

This is the danger I see in Wesnoth's future.

Also, I hate trolls. I hate them. Hate.
Gandalf-"I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the Flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udun. Go back to the Shadow. You cannot pass!"
AT- "That sounds like more trouble than it's worth."
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Re: balance

Post by Dave »

AT wrote:Don't we want to make it so Faction X and Faction Y, if exactly equally skilled, will never beat each other?
(for all values of X and Y)
Well, more like X will beat Y as much as Y beats X. That's what I meant -- they each have a good chance of beating each other.
AT wrote: Otherwise it becomes a rock-paper-scissors match in the game lobby. My first post on this forum was on this topic, i think. EDIT: Can't find it. But the point was this:

Back in the day, there was a RTS that Team A beat Team B, and B beat C, and C beat A. (by 'beat' i mean was strong against). What would happen is that people would be playing rock-paper-scissors in the game lobby. Someone would choose A, the other then would pick C. A would change to B, the C to A, etc.

This is the danger I see in Wesnoth's future.
Precisely. This is a big danger I see too.

David
“At Gambling, the deadly sin is to mistake bad play for bad luck.” -- Ian Fleming
telly
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Post by telly »

Knalgans are extremely strong in multiplayer, maybe even the best faction all round. I don't know what anyone is thinking saying they're weak, especially now gryphons have a 2nd level.
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Post by Stosswelle »

i would like to agree with dave saying no more factions and that northerners are balanced
northerners shouldnt be touched at alll
mwah!
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Post by quartex »

AT wrote:

"Back in the day, there was a RTS that Team A beat Team B, and B beat C, and C beat A. (by 'beat' i mean was strong against). What would happen is that people would be playing rock-paper-scissors in the game lobby. Someone would choose A, the other then would pick C. A would change to B, the C to A, etc."

Would you be referring to Starcraft? :-) Multiplayer balancing falls near the bottom on my personal to-do list for wensoth. It's hard to do, especially with so many races, and since the emphasis of Wesnoth is on single player campaigns, I don't think we should spend too much time worrying about it. Blizzard spent forever trying to balance their races and it is very difficult. I'm not saying we should ignore balance, I'm cutting the designers some slack.
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Post by Elvish_Pillager »

telly wrote:Knalgans are extremely strong in multiplayer, maybe even the best faction all round. I don't know what anyone is thinking saying they're weak, especially now gryphons have a 2nd level.
Because they're always easy to crush in my multiplayer battles against the AI?
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