Non-human necromancy

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dwarf dude
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Post by dwarf dude »

with all the high elves, wood elves, and dark elves, its starting to sound kinda like The Elder Scrolls 3: Morrowind.

On the matter of dwarvish necromany, perhaps something along the line of trapping souls of the dead to animate robotic soldiers?.....[/b]
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khamul
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Post by khamul »

I see Necromancy for humans more as an extreme form of utilitarianism than actively evil: after all, if everyone in your army is already dead, that's immediately reduced the casualties by half.

The 'evil' in necromancy is not so much the animation of corpses (how is this worse than animating mud to make a golem?) but the misuse of magic to enslave the surrounding world: human malomancy is centered on absolute control. Necromancy is a good way of doing this, as the Undead cannot challenge the Necromancer's will.

As for Wesnoth's elves, I find Turin's ideas interesting, but they don't work within Wesnoth for me: Wesnoth's elves surround themselves with living things. A deviant elf is one who instead of living in/on a tree, in harmony with it, instead cuts it down, clears the area around it, and builds a house. For me, Elven Malomancy is probably something very close to Dwarven rule magic - working magic into something that has no relation to nature. LoTR's Noldor would be very close to being Wesnoth's Bad Elves. For me.

Dwarves: I'm not sure what 'bad' is to a dwarf, but one of the things often associated with Dwarves in fantasy literature is possesiveness, and brotherhood. A bad dwarf might be one who betrays his fellow dwarves to increase his own power. I kind of see the One Ring from LotR being the ultimate dwarvish malomancy - an enchanted artifact that subverts all other artifacts to increase the owner's power.

I have no thoughts on Orcs and Saurians, except that I agree that I can't see Orcs respecting the Undead enough to be interested in Necromancy.
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JW
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Post by JW »

khamul wrote:if everyone in your army is already dead, that's immediately reduced the casualties by half.
I call fuzzy math on this one. :P
khamul
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Post by khamul »

JW wrote:
khamul wrote:if everyone in your army is already dead, that's immediately reduced the casualties by half.
I call fuzzy math on this one. :P
Okay - I grant you that in Wesnoth it's possible to win by killing all the opposition without losing a single man, so building an army of the Dead may not affect casualty rates at all, providing that they win.

On the other hand, if the Undead lose, it's possible to have a battle with no casualties at all. Though I suppose anyone can manage that, simply by surrendering quickly enough.

Anyway, pendantry aside, my point still stands. And in the real world (with a few notable exceptions) victory or defeat has tended to be defined by who runs away first - so shambling horrors can reduce casualties still further...
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Thrawn
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Post by Thrawn »

Wow, lovely topic!!!
My first comment in this has been said before, but I'll point it out again: human necromancers don't think like regular humans, so saying comments like "mermen hate undead" is not too useful, because I hate undead too, and I'm human...that being said:

Elves: Although seen as lovers of nature and all the previously said things, my impression of elves are that they like knowing things. I could be wrong, but that is my impression. In that case, could it not be possible for an elf to dabble in malomancy, becasue as people have pointed out, it could be more than just lichdom and summoning spirits. It is also the knowlege gained, and new things to be learned. I could see this happening, but rarely.

Dwarves: I can see them using malomancy, but again of a different type than just necromantic rituals. Dwarves (and elves too) are an extremely proud group, and also very angry (if that makes sense). What I mean that is they hold grudges, and those spark hatred and long lasting warfare (hence their enimnity with elves). I could see them doing things like trying to use magic to cause violent happenances (eathquakes, firestorms, etc.) in their anger. This however seems both in and out of character with ther use of magic as a tool:they prefer more mundane tools. However this leads to another line of malomancy: perhaps cursed charms, dolls and the like, channelling ill-will into their works of art/tools and all, sort of like was suggested for the orcs.

Orcs: I can see them using malomancy: orcish shamans had a curse attack, did they not? Orcs are the peopel obsessed with power. That seems to be their only nature. In this light, it seems probable that they would use malomancy in the first way I said dwarves would: to create tremendous havoc that could (possibly) backfire. Also, I think they would be smart enough to trap people's spirits and force the bodies to fight after death, it would just take the shamans. They are a ritualistic, if not truely magical group IMO

Mermen, Nagas, Ogres, Drakes: These factions are too 1-dimensional to really say.


Is malomancy even a legit word :)
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Temuchin Khan
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Post by Temuchin Khan »

Thrawn wrote:Is malomancy even a legit word :)
It may not be in any dictionary, but it is perfectly legitimate. It was constructed according to the proper rules of grammar from legitimate sources -- in this case, two Latin words. In fact, the word "necromancy" was constructed in the exact same way.
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JW
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Post by JW »

Thrawn wrote:Dwarves:
they hold grudges, and those spark hatred and long lasting warfare
Actually, the long-lasting warfare comes from the fact that they can't kill each other when they're in the mountains. Just ask any experienced MP player! :twisted:
I could see them doing things like trying to use magic to cause violent happenances (eathquakes, firestorms, etc.) in their anger. This however seems both in and out of character with ther use of magic as a tool:they prefer more mundane tools. However this leads to another line of malomancy: perhaps cursed charms, dolls and the like, channelling ill-will into their works of art/tools and all, sort of like was suggested for the orcs.
I gotta say, if Dwarves are to be argued to use magic, they really should get an MP unit that uses it.
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zookeeper
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Post by zookeeper »

JW wrote:I gotta say, if Dwarves are to be argued to use magic, they really should get an MP unit that uses it.
I've always thought that how MP factions are constructed is really rather irrelevant to the WoW, and vice versa. They (default era factions) are obviously just artificial constructs made simply to make balanced MP possible (or easier to do without adding lots of new units to the game).
Lathai
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Post by Lathai »

Well I think magic from a LOTR standpoint as a few points:

there is a "mages" (or wizards or whatever) with 5 members including Gandalf and Saruman.

Other races can use magic to a limited extent (Dwarvish runes, I believe Glorfindel used some sort of magic against the Black Riders, elves use their singing as magic)


In regards too Wesnoth, I'd like to point out that Merfolk do have magic (the priestesses or whatever) and I'm not too familiar with Woses but in some user-made campaigns there are Wose shamans (although I don't know if that is representative of what it really should be). In any case, I don't see any reason why they should not be intelligent.
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Thrawn
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Post by Thrawn »

Lathai wrote:Well I think magic from a LOTR standpoint as a few points:

there is a "mages" (or wizards or whatever) with 5 members including Gandalf and Saruman.

Other races can use magic to a limited extent (Dwarvish runes, I believe Glorfindel used some sort of magic against the Black Riders, elves use their singing as magic)

.
this was said, several times...please read through a topic before posting :)

and Gandalf and Saruman aren't humans!!!
...please remember that "IT'S" ALWAYS MEANS "IT IS" and "ITS" IS WHAT YOU USE TO INDICATE POSSESSION BY "IT".--scott

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Elvish_Pillager
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Post by Elvish_Pillager »

Synopsis of Middle-Earth magic.
- Humans: Zilch. Zero. Nada.
- Orcs: See Humans.
- Elves: They sing magical songs and weave magical cloaks and forge magical rings and suchlike.
- Dwarves: The Dwarves of yore made mighty spells / while hammers fell like ringing bells...
- Wizards: It helps to think of them as something totally alien, raceless, and incomprehensible.
- Sauron & co.: Dwimmercraft, necromancy, morgul sorcery! If it's evil and nasty they can do it by magic.
It's all fun and games until someone loses a lawsuit. Oh, and by the way, sending me private messages won't work. :/ If you must contact me, there's an e-mail address listed on the website in my profile.
Starev91
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Post by Starev91 »

Flametrooper wrote:Elven malomancy could be where the Dark Elves come from - a normal elf that starts to dabble in malomancy, or is corrupted by the malomancy of another elf, ends up a dark elf. (Turin, please set aside your hatred of dark elves for a second and at least consider this.) Simple, really.
Which is dark elves in the Dragonlance series, if you want me to give kudos to a fantasy series for beating you to this idea :)


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Post by Flametrooper »

Elvish Pillager wrote:Synopsis of Middle-Earth magic.
- Humans: Zilch. Zero. Nada.
- Orcs: See Humans.
- Elves: They sing magical songs and weave magical cloaks and forge magical rings and suchlike.
- Dwarves: The Dwarves of yore made mighty spells / while hammers fell like ringing bells...
- Wizards: It helps to think of them as something totally alien, raceless, and incomprehensible.
- Sauron & co.: Dwimmercraft, necromancy, morgul sorcery! If it's evil and nasty they can do it by magic.
You forgot the hobbits! :P
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JW
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Post by JW »

zookeeper wrote:
JW wrote:I gotta say, if Dwarves are to be argued to use magic, they really should get an MP unit that uses it.
I've always thought that how MP factions are constructed is really rather irrelevant to the WoW, and vice versa. They (default era factions) are obviously just artificial constructs made simply to make balanced MP possible (or easier to do without adding lots of new units to the game).
Well, (1) it would be cool, and help Dwarfs kill each other, (2) it would straighten people out as to whether or not Dwarves use magic - if it matter.

ps, it doesn't have to be a level 1 unit. :P
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Elvish_Pillager
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Post by Elvish_Pillager »

Flametrooper wrote:You forgot the hobbits! :P
You might as well say I forgot the dragons, or the Valar. It's just that they're more insignificant; there's not room for them in a quick synopsis.
It's all fun and games until someone loses a lawsuit. Oh, and by the way, sending me private messages won't work. :/ If you must contact me, there's an e-mail address listed on the website in my profile.
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