Hello to all Wesnoth fans! A few questions & suggestions

Post by **Dave** » April 5th, 2004, 6:11 pm

Mortifer wrote:Oh, thanks for the informations!
You devs liked the idea about more gold resource types?
Ie. gold mine etc.? .. or only villages will be the source of gold?

I don't know I'd like it to be in any scenarios I write, but adding support for it [1] to the game engine would be nice.

David

[1] You could already do this using WML, but it'd be rather clunky, and wouldn't fit into the game as well as 'native' support.

Post by **Boucman** » April 5th, 2004, 6:51 pm

you can put "flagged" features in WML ?

Mortifer · Post by **Mortifer** » April 5th, 2004, 6:54 pm

I will play around with the WML, however Im not a programmer/coder.

Post by **Boucman** » April 5th, 2004, 6:58 pm

that's OK, if you know how to draw, you could do graphics...

Musician ? you could do some music ?

simply a player ? you could write something in the WIki...

there are all sort of ways to help

Mortifer · Post by **Mortifer** » April 5th, 2004, 8:19 pm

Hm, maybe I can help to make gfx!
The units are very cool, but I dont like the terrain gfx, so maybe I will make some new tilesets for the game or for a mod..

Ah and yet another question.

..
so...why is the size of the units are so small? The size of the unit image is limitied to 1 hex, am I correct? This is not good. We should be allowed to use at least 2x2 hexes for the units.
Examples [where X is a size of a tile]:

X , XX , X , XX
X , XX

Post by **Dave** » April 5th, 2004, 8:32 pm

Mortifer wrote: so...why is the size of the units are so small? The size of the unit image is limitied to 1 hex, am I correct? This is not good. We should be allowed to use at least 2x2 hexes for the units.

I know of no other hex-based games that allow multi-hex units.

I imagine that you are 'importing' this idea from some tile-based games that use rectangles. I would point out that the manuevering of a multi-hex unit would be rather complicated. How the graphics would work would be very convoluted.

The only sane shapes for a multi-tile unit would be a 7-hex unit, and perhaps a 2-hex unit.

Anyhow, we have had this discussion at length in the past, and it has always been decided that multi-hex units have no real place in the game.

If you could point out some hex-based games that do support multi-hex units, it would be appreciated

[1]

David

[1] And no, "No other hex games do it, and that's why it would be such a great innovation!" is not a valid answer.

Mortifer · Post by **Mortifer** » April 5th, 2004, 8:38 pm

Indeed there are some hex based RPGs for example with multi hex units.
It is working like this. If a unit is 4 hexes big for example, it is occupying that 4 hex on the map physically, ergo it can be attacked from 12 hexes around him.
Yup I can give you some games for example!

The gfx part isnt that complicated, example a 2x2 unit should consist 4x1 hex gfx in the right order. Ive seen this system in Blades of Exile or Avernum [Spiderwebsoftware] for example.
Hope this helps!

Post by **Sangel** » April 5th, 2004, 9:04 pm

The Avernum Engine uses an isometric grid, not a Hex system. So unfortunately, its system is not really workable.

A better way of implementing "really big" monsters is simply to let unit graphics exceed the size of the hex they're in. While you'd have to keep a close rein on artists so that this doesn't become impractical in the game, a dragon which rears halfway into the hex above it (half covering any unit there, of course) with a tail which curls part of the way into the hex behind it would be a truly scary creature, without needing the headaches of multi-hex units.

Post by **Dave** » April 5th, 2004, 9:47 pm

Sangel wrote:The Avernum Engine uses an isometric grid, not a Hex system. So unfortunately, its system is not really workable.

Yes I've seen Avernum and it's rect-based, not hex-based. (That its viewpoint is isometric is simply eye-candy and is immaterial to the discussion).

Sangel wrote: A better way of implementing "really big" monsters is simply to let unit graphics exceed the size of the hex they're in. While you'd have to keep a close rein on artists so that this doesn't become impractical in the game, a dragon which rears halfway into the hex above it (half covering any unit there, of course) with a tail which curls part of the way into the hex behind it would be a truly scary creature, without needing the headaches of multi-hex units.

This is a good idea, and I have some ideas on how to do it. It would also allow e.g. the Mage of Light to have a halo that extends into surrounding hexes.

The main problem is, if you have two units that are 'huge' and are next to each other, which one gets drawn on top of the other?

David

Post by **Darth Fool** » April 5th, 2004, 9:59 pm

Dave wrote:
This is a good idea, and I have some ideas on how to do it. It would also allow e.g. the Mage of Light to have a halo that extends into surrounding hexes.

The main problem is, if you have two units that are 'huge' and are next to each other, which one gets drawn on top of the other?

David

Might I suggest, just as the natural thing to do for two units one up and one down, is to draw the one below second (so that it hides the other units feet and not the other way round) the thing to do with units next to each other would be to pick a direction (say left to right) and draw all units in that order. It would then be implicit that the hexes to the left are actually a little farther away from the screen, just as the same effect applied veritcally gives the impression that upward hexes are farther away than nearer ones.

Of course, unlike the vertical case, there is a degenerate solution since either left to right or right to left would work equally well...you just have to pick one....

Integral · Post by **Integral** » April 5th, 2004, 10:07 pm

Dave wrote: The main problem is, if you have two units that are 'huge' and are next to each other, which one gets drawn on top of the other?

What about the last unit to move, attack, or defend? That way units that are active will always be visible. The disadvantage, of course, is that units will sometimes suddenly "pop" out from under other units. That shouldn't be a problem for units that temporarily leave the hex (like the rearing dragon that was mentioned), but if super-tall tree people (for instance) are added, it might get a bit confusing.

I think transparency effects, like a White Mage halo,might be better handled as a separate drawing queue, because those should always be composed on top of all the "solid" graphics regardless of what "solid" unit is on top.

Daniel

Mortifer · Post by **Mortifer** » April 5th, 2004, 10:08 pm

Dave I guess the Blades of Exile is hex based, but I am unsure. Check it out, it is a spiderweb game as well!

Post by **Dave** » April 5th, 2004, 10:14 pm

Mortifer wrote:Dave I guess the Blades of Exile is hex based, but I am unsure. Check it out, it is a spiderweb game as well!

I believe that all the Exile games are also rect-based.

David

Mortifer · Post by **Mortifer** » April 5th, 2004, 11:42 pm

Hmmmm..I see.

Yet another suggestion. Some units should have a special ability: slayer.
Example an Orc Warlord should be a human slayer, ergo it should cause more damage to the humans.
An high level elf archer should be an orc slayer, so he will cause more damage to the orcs.
etc...

Is it possible to add things like adding traits, resistances etc. without programming knowledge..using the WML?
If yes I will spend some time to check out these things, and I will try to add my ideas.

Post by **Sangel** » April 6th, 2004, 12:40 am

Yet another suggestion. Some units should have a special ability: slayer.
Example an Orc Warlord should be a human slayer, ergo it should cause more damage to the humans.
An high level elf archer should be an orc slayer, so he will cause more damage to the orcs.
etc...

Race or type based damage modifiers would be handy, though I'd shy away from implementing them in the standard set of units. Having all elves do extra damage to all dwarves (as an example) would be quite pointless, while having just one "normal" elf type do lots of damage to all dwarves would make multiplayer games monotonous. For scenario specific units, though, this would be a great feature (A dragon? Summon the Dragon Slayer!).

This is a good idea, and I have some ideas on how to do it. It would also allow e.g. the Mage of Light to have a halo that extends into surrounding hexes.

The main problem is, if you have two units that are 'huge' and are next to each other, which one gets drawn on top of the other?

Basically, I agree with Darth's solution: Make either left or right units take priority. I don't believe a unit should ever more than half fill an adjacent hex, so units should never really "pop up" from underneath.

An alternate suggestion is to do it by the unit's current facing. So, units "behind" a dragon would be drawn over the top of it's tail, but units "in front of" a dragon would have its claws drawn over the top of them. Just as an example.

How difficult do you think this would be to implement?