Scenario Review: (UTBS) 12. The Final Confrontation

Feedback for the mainline campaign Under the Burning Suns.

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nikita1996
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Re: Scenario Review: (UTBS) 12. The Final Confrontation

Post by nikita1996 »

1) v1.12.4 difficulty: Desert Sentinel (Challenging)
2) If you know which unit to kill, it will be very easy; but if not, it can be so hard. A player may not know that the three unmovable monsters should be killed first. This is a problem.
3) No.
4) Yes.
5) Not so fun because it's not difficult enough for me. I knew which to kill in the beginning.
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Inky
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Re: Scenario Review: (UTBS) 12. The Final Confrontation

Post by Inky »

1) Level, version, gold? 1.12.5 nightmare (gold irrelevant)
2) Adequately difficult? 3/10, finished on turn 3 (!).
3) Reloads? No restarts/reloads. And no saveloading throughout the campaign, through this campaign almost seems designed to make you do it.
4) Dialog? -
5) Fun? Well, there's not much to it.
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General comments on the campaign:

I know UTBS will be redone, though I'm not sure if it's just the units/artwork or if the scenarios are going to be redesigned. There were several scenario design issues that bothered me the most, so I hope whoever is doing the remake would consider changing these.

-S 4 (Descending into darkness): If you send a unit west at the beginning you'll trigger a nasty ambush which is very likely to kill that unit. It ends up being pointless, as the majority of players just restart and don't send anyone west next time.

-S 5 (A subterranean struggle): If you scout ahead with Zhul and trigger the appearance of the dwarves and trolls while Kaleh is still several turns from the keep, you'll most likely lose as the dwarves/trolls will have completely surrounded the keep by the time you get there.

-S 8 (Out of the frying pan): Again if you scout ahead too early in the valley, you will almost certainly not be able to advance fast enough to intercept the messenger, which makes you lose. This is especially frustrating as it happens after you already spent 30+ turns getting out of the cave.

Despite these incidents I found UTBS to be one of the most fun campaigns in mainline. I especially loved the epic battle for Zochthanol isle. I also loved the awesome prowler unit, and as much as I'm looking forward to seeing the remake, I am sure going to miss them...
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UnwiseOwl
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Re: Scenario Review: (UTBS) 12. The Final Confrontation

Post by UnwiseOwl »

1) Version? 1.13.7, Challenging (new elves)

2) Adequately difficult? A bit of a let-down after the level of the rest of the campaign, maybe a little easy, but I suppose I got lucky with Grog hitting all his shots.

3) Reloads? No.

4) Dialog? Fine.

5) Fun? New enemies and strange win conditions are always fun.
Thanks for the campaign, it's been a long time since I last visited it and I found it a real joy, when last time I played it through I really wasn't a fan. The work done on this one has really brought it's level up.
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Maintainer of the Imperial Era and the campaigns Dreams of Urduk, Epic of Vaniyera, Up from Slavery, Fall of Silvium, Alfhelm the Wise and Gali's Contract.
But perhaps 'maintainer' is too strong a word.
613TheEvil
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Re: Scenario Review: (UTBS) 12. The Final Confrontation

Post by 613TheEvil »

Huge thanks from me to whomever worked on this wonderful campaign.
Thrash
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Re: Scenario Review: (UTBS) 12. The Final Confrontation

Post by Thrash »

1) What version and difficulty level did you play the scenario on? Please do not submit feedback from pre 1.4.

1.12.6, Challenging (medium)

2) Do you think the difficulty is adequate to the level? If not describe the issue that made the scenario to easy/hard.

Seemed easier than average for the campaign. The only hitch was figuring out that I wasn't going to get ahead of the spawning whatevers and kill the three stationary things.

3) Was there any event that caused you to almost instantly loose, or made the scenario unplayable without reload?

No.

4) Do you like the storyline and the dialogues? If not what part/character lags behind or what would you like changed?

Yes.

5) Do you think the scenario was fun? Please write down some thoughts about gameplay, mood etc.

Nice interesting twist. My only complaint is that one hero that arrived was a merman. Not the most useful nor fitting the storyline I think.

6) Made up question: what did you think of the campaign?

One of my favorites with lots of interesting challenges.

I agree with Inky about the issues they point out.
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LordWolfDan
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Re: Scenario Review: (UTBS) 12. The Final Confrontation

Post by LordWolfDan »

1) What version and difficulty level did you play the scenario on? Please do not submit feedback from pre 1.4.

- 1.14.5, Normal

2) Do you think the difficulty is adequate to the level? If not describe the issue that made the scenario to easy/hard.

- It could be difficult if you aren't fast enough to defeat these crawling horror thingies

3) Was there any event that caused you to almost instantly loose, or made the scenario unplayable without reload?

- Not at all

4) Do you like the storyline and the dialogues? If not what part/character lags behind or what would you like changed?

- A very good eniding and the satisfying demise for fake Eloh (Yechnagoth). She totally got what she deserved!

5) Do you think the scenario was fun? Please write down some thoughts about gameplay, mood etc.

- Short & fun
Konrad2
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Re: Scenario Review: (UTBS) 12. The Final Confrontation

Post by Konrad2 »

1) What version and difficulty level did you play the scenario on?

1.14.7, Champion (Nightmare)

2) Do you think the difficulty is adequate to the level?

No, not really. It felt easy.

3) Was there any event that caused you to almost instantly lose, or made the scenario unplayable without reload?

No. (But I played it before, so...)

4) Do you like the storyline and the dialogues?

I like them.

5) Do you think the scenario was fun?

Yes.
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Zrevnur
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Re: Scenario Review: (UTBS) 12. The Final Confrontation

Post by Zrevnur »

Content Feedback wrote:
March 20th, 2006, 6:07 am
1) What version and difficulty level did you play the scenario on? Please do not submit feedback from pre 1.4.
1.14.11 Champion/Nightmare no reloading, played at least twice
Content Feedback wrote:
March 20th, 2006, 6:07 am
2) Do you think the difficulty is adequate to the level? If not describe the issue that made the scenario to easy/hard.
Not sure about phase 1 ("kill false Eloh") or rather the transition to phase 2 - I think its too RNG but I dont know enough about the scripting to be sure.
The rest (phase 2) is ok if knowing the scripting. (It can probably be played completely differently from how I played it.)
Content Feedback wrote:
March 20th, 2006, 6:07 am
3) Was there any event that caused you to almost instantly lose, or made the scenario unplayable without reload?
This is extremely unfair if not knowing the scripting. Especially you get punished for making the obvious move of placing a unit next to the "pillar". And then after phasing the enemy you cant move anymore. Its like this is done to deliberately screw player who dont know it yet or something. Also very bad is the "slow attack" by the enemy. You need to watch carefully to figure out that it does 15 damage. And if the target unit is killed then there is no dialog for it.
Note that I dont know the scripting details. It may be possible that there is a better approach - like do not kill "false Eloh" at first turn or sth.
Content Feedback wrote:
March 20th, 2006, 6:07 am
4) Do you like the storyline and the dialogues? If not what part/character lags behind or what would you like changed?
Not sure. Why does Kaleh have to survive anyway?
"We must keep attacking it." - this is inconsistent with my gameplay.
Content Feedback wrote:
March 20th, 2006, 6:07 am
5) Do you think the scenario was fun? Please write down some thoughts about gameplay, mood etc.
Its different.
Not cool is that you get punished for leveling Mer warriors and other units that arent good in there.
Edit: Why doesnt Nym bring her pet? (Also an issue in some other scenarios but it can be fixed there per recalling it.)
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devavrata
Posts: 116
Joined: August 30th, 2012, 8:59 pm

Re:

Post by devavrata »

scott wrote:
June 25th, 2006, 6:26 pm
Elvish Pillager wrote:There's no evidence in the campaign that she exists; in fact, from some point of view, there is extensive evidence in the campaign that she does not.
Which is a long-winded way of saying she might exist.

And, there is zero evidence either way. Since it is more convenient to do so than to drag the feedback thread into a useless debate: OFWRA, especially if turin gets involved.
So funny! The classical philosophical discussion about God's existence, reproduced inside Battle of Wesnoth concerning goddess Eloh. :D
But then, the discussion here is not trivial - anyone could create a new campaign setting up Eloh as a real god inside this fictional universe.
The discussion about the existence of a god-like figure is not the same when you have the ability to create this figure - if the discussion gets you fed up, you can always close it by creating the figure.
Concerning the campaigns fictional protagonists, it has to be so much disappointing, and leading to disbelief, to find out that who you though was your goddess was in fact an evil impersonator. One shouldn't believe in a god without the guarantee of it never being falsely impersonated. The first requirement to be a god should be thus, to immediately annihilate anybody trying to impersonate you.
At least in real life none can convincingly impersonate a god. Or pretend to speak in his name... oh wait.
devavrata
Posts: 116
Joined: August 30th, 2012, 8:59 pm

Re: Scenario Review: (UTBS) 12. The Final Confrontation

Post by devavrata »

Content Feedback wrote:
March 20th, 2006, 6:07 am
1) What version and difficulty level did you play the scenario on? Please do not submit feedback from pre 1.4.
Battle for Wesnoth 1.8.3, Easy, Battle for Wesnoth 1.10.7 Medium, Battle for Wesnoth 1.12.5 Hard
2) Do you think the difficulty is adequate to the level? If not describe the issue that made the scenario to easy/hard.
Difficulty is right.
3) Was there any event that caused you to almost instantly lose, or made the scenario unplayable without reload?
No.
4) Do you like the storyline and the dialogues? If not what part/character lags behind or what would you like changed?
Yechnagoth's revelation as some otherworldly being is nice. A perfect ending.
5) Do you think the scenario was fun? Please write down some thoughts about gameplay, mood etc.
Not really fun but challenging. If you let those crawlers accumulate from one turn to the next, you are going to have a bad time.

About the campaign in general:
  • It is inventive to show the elves in the desert rather than the forest.
  • The diverging campaign path is nice.
  • The scenarios are long to play, and not because of having massive battles but because they hold two, three or four quests that could be done in independent scenarios - personally, I prefer this to be done in separated scenarios, because having scenarios so big and taking so much time to play is a deterrent to me.
  • The dialogue is really verbose - it has too much text, to the point that I don't bother to read most of it. This is a game. The player is already familiar with the dialogues' possible outcomes. You don't need so much text to explain who to fight next. Whereas Garak's substory is nice, Tanstafaal's is ridiculous - Tanstafaal who? Exploring the brain-washing done by the fake Eloh to the elves would require some more explanation - yes, at least for this time, a bit more dialogue. Introducing Tanstafaal earlier, showing how the doing of Eloh is creating division amongst the elves, and even Kaleh fearing that Eloh could turn on him.
  • The battles are never too exciting. I blame this on two reasons: Scenarios have lots of open spaces (even the caves are wide, with few bottlenecks), and the Artificial Intelligence that takes care of the enemies' strategy in Battle of Wesnoth is badder the wider the battle space is.
About the fake Eloh, she is a disconcerting character because:
  • She is immortal, until killed. No problem here, there are many Fantasy villains that are this way.
  • She is quite omniscient (can see the present, can locate anybody anywhere to the point of providing navigational directions). Alright, there are some Fantasy villains that are like that.
  • She has a number of armies that serve her. So, she is a Sauron-like figure: immortal, commanding big armies and having a palantir. Acceptable so far.
  • She can appear to people and speak to them both awake and in their dreams... and here, this is a problem. Speaking in dreams is a gift never associated with evil, and it is so for a reason. Speaking to elves requires knowing the elvish language, knowing the elvish culture, knowing the elvish religion. The fake Eloh had to learn all of that. We'll guess that in order to get the humans to serve her, she did a similar process with them. She is kind of building a multi-cultural empire. Evil people don't usually care about their peasants, much less to learn all about them. The fake Eloh could send her armies across the mountains to enslave the elves, but prefers to appeal at them. The Elves get into conflict with Eloh's empire just because... what, being too hairy-heeled to accept to integrate themselves into Eloh's empire?
It doesn't work to have the fake Eloh being both an evil deceiver and an evil empress. If empress, she wouldn't bother to deceive; if deceiver, she would do so because of lacking power.

Could the campaign work with a deceiver-only Eloh? I suppose so, but then, why would the conflict start? Well, I suppose Eloh could request Kaleh to kill all of the merfolk or something like that. Having no real force of her own, the final battle would be the one amongst the elves supporting and fighting Eloh, and after that the final confrontation.
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