[Historical] Legend of Wesmere (add-on version)

This is the place for discussing development of mainline campaigns, reporting bugs in them and providing overall feedback.

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santi
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Post by santi »

Yes, I was just kidding...
In Elves last stand, the choice is between facing smart opponents or more but less smart ones. Technically if you choose the hardened veterans the AI should calculate how to inflict maximum damage on you(attack depth=6)
If not, the attack depth is lower, but you get to face a few more opponents.
It should not make much difference anyway-this is a bloodbath scenario, but I felt appropriate for a battle that changed the course of Wesnoth history, a sort of Wesnoth Stalingrad or El Alamein.
The original intent was that some people did not like this scenario because it took too long to play(although most of the heavy fighting where the AI needs to calculate is on rounds 6-8 ), so speed up the playing time(by having the AI calculate less deeply) was considered.
This was probably a doomed attempt-those who objected originally
probably still do not like the entire idea, while those who did like it
probably did not notice much. I find it easier to do "great strategy" with big numbers than with small ones, where luck in tactics is much more important.
mevo
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Post by mevo »

I've now progressed to "Hero's Return". Meanwhile I have updated BfW to the newest version 1.3.18. If I enter the village at 23,12 two new units appear and at the same time a message text appears in the upper left corner saying "<Deprecated WML found> Macro 'UNIT' is scheduled for removal in Wesnoth 1.3.15 (4)". Something similar happens if a unit enters a region southwest of Kalenz' keep.
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santi
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Post by santi »

What LOW version are you playing?
mevo
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Post by mevo »

I play the newest LOW from the web server, so I think it's 1.4.5
The scenario seems to be playable anyway, I do not have the impression that something is missing. It's just these annoying messages that appear each time some of the hidden elves are released.
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santi
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Post by santi »

mevo, thanks for the report. I was able to confirm this in 1.3.18.
I am attaching the new scenario that gets rid of these messages.
(It was actually easy, looked at TROW scenario 3 to see how Burin appears
in 1.3.18)
It will be included in the next version, which should also have some more
tricks-including some nice pics for some scenaria introductions
Attachments
31_Hero's_Return.zip
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santi
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Re: New Elvish(Kalenz) Campaign

Post by santi »

I am looking for advice on an issue that has come up: As LoW is being prepared for mainline,
an issue has come up with some people disliking long campaigns in general. As suggested, I think the best solution to this is to give the user an option to skip the next scenario or not. This way we can keep everybody happy: Those who want to play the full campaign, but also those who want a shorter campaign. The question now is what is the best way to do this:
-Asking at the end of selected campaigns :"Should we now go straight to ..., which will probably be uneventful" , which wil skip the next scenario, or "Proceed ", which will play the next scenario.
-Asking ONCE at the beginning of the campaign: Do you want the short or long version?
This will spare the user the need to answer everytime(and often make a mistake) and will
be more maintainable, as the maintainer(me) will have to balance 2 branches instead of many.
I am interested in user input at this point, as I am not sure what I the best way to proceed(I think I favor the second way)
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kitty
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Re: New Elvish(Kalenz) Campaign

Post by kitty »

since i just played through the campaign, i thought i could give you some feedback! :)

first of all - i really enjoyed it!

but two aspects bothered me:

- i felt a bit lost, i know it's the campaign's aim to connect wesnoth' history from a certain point od view. but still it felt somewhat random. i had beat one threat, the text says something about a few years later and a new problem arises, and again... i would wish for more connection, more of an story arc.

- the end disapointed me a lot, it felt like any other cenario. it was very nice to remember the map from htt and so on, but somehow it was no final battle to me...
the "first epilogue" felt much more like an end to me - perhaps that could be a point were the player choses to continue kalenz' adventures or ends the campaign?
i don't like to have the decision at the very beginning. the player doesn't know how much fun the campaign will be. and it would leave me with the question why there is a long version, if the story can be told in the short one - are the other cenarios just fillers?

however, i'm very curious what the outcome of the rewriting will be!
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santi
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Re: New Elvish(Kalenz) Campaign

Post by santi »

Kitty, thanks for the feedback!
The design goals were
-consistency with history(which really means preexisting campaigns)
-fun gameplay(which includes, but is not limited to, fighting as many different opponents as possible (orcs, trolls, saurians, humans, drakes, gryphons, monsters, undead and elves), though not in equal amounts)
LoW is indeed split into two periods.
This is deliberate, because of the constraints put by
HttT and TROW. TROW ends with the orcs beaten and basically thrown in the Sea. By HttT orcs are well set in Wesnoth. TROW hints at a possible second invasion, especially since the orcs now know of the ruby of fire. So a number of questions arise:
-first, it is clear that there must be a second invasion
-a balance of terror must be achieved, in which no side is able to decisively beat the other side
and there must be a period of peace(Golden age) where humans get to be the dominant force
, at least in the areas they occupy.
-also in TROW it is hinted that haldric will break the pact with the elves if the orcs attack again
-so the elves must win by themselves. But they must not be able to clear the island of orcs.
All these are achieved with the double civil war twist.
Meanwhile, Kalenz has to be able to overcome the poison he swallowed(Crelanu's gift),
hence a period of hiatus(which happens to coincide with Wesnoth's golden age). To be consistent with such a period, one needs a rest period and the hiatus comes in handy. This is golden age for Wesnoth for sure, but rather boring age for Wesnoth players.

It is clear at the end of the first period(with landar's death) that orcs will eventually be reunited, so the threat will return. This period coincides with the age of the Garards, Delfador and Iliah-Malal, so when turmoil returns, it is big time.

Kalenz's story of course does not end with Low; but HttT joins the pieces. Similarly, Delfador's role does not begin with HttT, but way back with his fights with Iliah-Malal, so Low joins a few more pieces there, providing Delf with Crelanu's book, so he can seal Iliah-Malal's portal(if you have played Delfador's Memoirs, you know what I mean, if not I should not spoil it further)
The point is that this is such a turbulent time that Kalenz, Delfador's and Konrad's paths get all entangled -similar to many stories where the parties split up, like LOTR for instance
or big battles, where you have seperate heroes fighting on different flanks.
Interestingly, I was thinking of a big final battle with the forces of Asheviere, out in the open, either on the way to Aethenwood, or right after.
This would have to be a no-win for the elves, since Asheviere is not defeated until the end of HttT. The reason LoW cannot end with a huge, decisive battle, like say TROW or HttT is who would that battle be against? Both orcs and Asheviere are alive and well by the start of HttT.

Regarding other ideas,
-splitting the campaign in two is interesting, except for the units you can carry from the first period.
-your comment on the options also makes sense. No scenarios were meant to be fillers,
scenario 2 is an introduction to Olurf, adding to Landar's list of people who DID not help,
scenario 4 puts the saurians on Landar's hit list, 5 is essential to be able to win in 7, 6
you get back Olurf and with him the trip to Thoria, 9 among other things answers the question "where the hell did Kalenz know Arkan-Thoria from " which he refers to in the scenario after the sceptre of fire in HttT, and so on. My view is that one plays Wesnoth for fun, so the more scenaria the better, as long as they match the story, but others do not like long campaigns in principle, though this is not much longer than HttT or TROW and does not have scenaria that run some 135 turns(which is still fine with me if you need to explore something).
So it's not that I agree with the short version; it is that we are tryingto keep everybody happy. HttT had 2 scenaria removed due to this "campaign shortening policy", which were voted back by the users. In that discussion it was suggested to adopt such an option(short vs long) to try and keep everybody happy.
Sly
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Re: New Elvish(Kalenz) Campaign

Post by Sly »

I found a bug after Elves last Stand : Andulias (the Loyal elven warior) disapear along the other casual units even though Arkildur and Tameril-Isimeril stay.
I think it's a bug because when I look through the .cfg files Andulias should be recalled in each scenario thereafter.
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santi
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Re: New Elvish(Kalenz) Campaign

Post by santi »

Hmm... It's not a bug because Andulias is designed to stay behind (and reappear in Ancient Alliance with the rest of the elvish troops that defy the council). But that means the WML code that recalls him in the next 3 scenaria is never going to be executed. Thanks for the report.
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Re: New Elvish(Kalenz) Campaign

Post by Sly »

santi wrote:Hmm... It's not a bug because Andulias is designed to stay behind (and reappear in Ancient Alliance with the rest of the elvish troops that defy the council). But that means the WML code that recalls him in the next 3 scenaria is never going to be executed. Thanks for the report.
Ok.

Since the 3 other elves that are usually recalled do not stay behind I thought it was a bug ;)
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santi
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Re: New Elvish(Kalenz) Campaign

Post by santi »

Yes, he was joining the trip to Thoria in previous versions, but I though the elves were just too powerful with him for free, so I left him to guard home and return when really needed.
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Re: New Elvish(Kalenz) Campaign

Post by Sly »

The lower part of the maps for Bounty Hunters and Cliffs of Thoria are very very similar which make a strange effect of "copy-paste" ;)
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santi
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Re: New Elvish(Kalenz) Campaign

Post by santi »

Thanks, I'll look at that.
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santi
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Re: New Elvish(Kalenz) Campaign

Post by santi »

Just posted a new version including:
-Kitty's new portraits!(thus far)
-Some location photos(!)
-scenario changes(fabi's vesion of Elves Last stand)
-Sly's map remark is not addressed though(yet)

Please let me know of any bugs/remarks
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