People of the Green Isle

[Elfarion]

Actually, there isn't; all that the Timeline of Wesnoth says about it is that it was colonised by humans from a continent further to the west - still, afaik there's no mainline campaign stating that they came from the west...

I can't think of any mainline lore about that either.

However, doesn't Dead Water tell of a mermaid who fell in love with a mage, even giving him a magical sword as gift?

I'm just saying that this has been discussed several times and might come up again.

I'm really having ideas for a campaign telling of the Green Isle's colonization, but I have 2 other campaigns in the queue and lots of RL duties, so I'm not doing it - unless someone does the coding and the art, then I could provide the story

Unfortunately I'm neither into coding nor into art. I'm more of a storyteller myself.

[johndh]

I don't know if there's anything established for certain about where the proto-Islefolk (who we're calling the Vanyar) came from, but given their resemblance I suppose that they also came from the Old Continent in the far west much like the Wesfolk. Jessene may be implying this to be true when Haldric denies the existence of orcs and she says, "You've been on this island too long", suggesting that Haldric's ancestors knew of the orcs as well, which means they may have also come from the Old Continent.

Haldric has a somewhat Mediterranean look with an olive complexion and dark hair while Jessene is fair-skinned with red hair. This doesn't seem to be as a result of a tropical climate on the Green Isle, as "The Fall" (scenario two) features plenty of ice on an autumn day, and much of the campaign revolves around outrunning the coming winter and setting sail before the ports freeze. So this difference could be a result of normal variation or the result of mixing with the southern peoples.

The prologue of TRoW implies that the Islefolk were there long before the Wesfolk came, so perhaps this is where the fishermen idea can come in. The first settlers could have arrived following schools of fish or pods of whales. Finding it to be a lush and agreeable land, they called it the Green Isle. After a while, it could have developed into a real settlement with a sizable population. As Lady Jessene said, "[Haldric's] people simply washed up here long ago", so this implies a random discovery rather than one aided by aquatic allies. When the first sailors and refugees from Washraha arrived some time later, they made contact with these early Islefolk, mingling and occasionally intermarrying, sharing culture and bloodlines. These arrivals were by no means frequent or large. Due to the isolationism and blockade put in place by the Tarva dynasty, only small groups would be able to sneak (or bribe their way) away from the coast, so this would usually be a smuggler's small cargo ship loaded with valuable goods and any refugees who could pay them for passage.

Many of these merchant smugglers would want to keep their business a secret so they could maintain a monopoly on Islish(?) trade, but you know how people like to brag. The people of the two landmasses would eventually come to know of each other, but they'd probably have a mixture of some truth and a lot of fiction. "Oh, that place where I got all the gold? You wouldn't want to go there. The filthy cannibals will strip off your flesh while you're still alive and raise your bones from the dead to do their bidding! You should stay away and leave the trading to me."

the Islefolk are said (or suggested) to have been a primitive people before the Wesfolk arrived there.

I don't think that's really an issue if the immigrants from the southern continent are relatively few. Maybe they introduced the Islefolk to a few things, but I'm not imagining them taking over and introducing broad societal changes. Assuming you're referring to Jessene's statement that they'd "all still be herding sheep and living in grass huts if it wasn’t for [her] people," this strikes me as more of a social structure thing rather than "primitive" technology. Before the arrival of the Wesfolk, the Islefolk were apparently a disorganized agrarian society, unaccustomed to warfare, but I doubt that they were still using stone tools or anything of that nature. As the intro states, the need to fight off the Wesfolk was what made the Islefolk strong, so I interpret that as them learning the ways of war from them -- battlefield tactics, logistics, better armor and weapons, and moving from a scattering of villages to having fortified city-states.

Keep in mind that the southern continent must be such a hostile place for the Islefolk that they choose to go to the Great Continent rather than their original homeland.

Yes, that's definitely something I've had in mind. Washraha (which doesn't control the entire continent, mind you, but does control the coastal waters) is still ruled by tyrants at this point in my "history", and they would likely be turned away in a violent manner or enslaved.

How about this:
The people of [enter name] lived in small settlements along the northern coast of the southern continent as fishermen and farmers (-> fishermen: explains why they are primitive but can handle ships though). Each settlement was ruled by its own leader, who was head of the most influential family in the settlement (-> explains the existence of various little kingdoms on the Green Isle).
When Tarva Pa rose to power and began to build his empire, the need for soldiers and workforce increased. This led to recurring raids by slave traders who abducted young [name] men. These captives were sold as slaves or forced to serve in the Emperor's army. The people of [name] tried to fight against the raiders, but their small number, the fact that they did not manage to unite under one leader as well as their lack of iron weapons left them without any chance against this threat.
In this time old stories were told again - stories of fishermen who had travelled farther from the shore than anyone before. They claimed that they had sighted land in the north. (Or maybe the merfolk told them?) One after another the leaders of the settlement decided to take the chance and travel north to find a new home for their people.

The Rise of Wesnoth strongly implies (at least in my opinion) that the Islefolk came from the Old Continent in the west, where the Wesfolk and orcs came from. I do like the general idea of the Vanyar starting off as just fishermen who found the Green Isle and didn't think much of it until something made them want to evacuate in a hurry. "Hey, remember that island that your grandfather found during his whaling days?" Since the Vanyar apparently originated on the Old Continent, this would mean it probably wasn't the Washraha who scared them off. I would say they left when the lich lords came to power, but it's established that the Islefolk had no knowledge of magic until the Wesfolk showed up. Since it's implied that they had some knowledge of orcs in antiquity, it could be that orcs were the cause. Perhaps the Vanyar were disorganized villagers on the frontiers of civilization, so they fell to the orcish invasion early on and had to flee for their lives, while the ancestors of the Wesfolk were stronger and managed to survive the first wave. However, Jessene's assertion that they stumbled upon the island by accident makes this unlikely as the impetus for the migration. Plus, I'd like to have at least one human migration that isn't the result of an invasion. So that's why I put forth my explanation above, where they were following migratory routes and found this lush island paradise. They stumbled upon the island haphazardly so it doesn't seem that they were fleeing, but they had at least some knowledge of orcs so they had presumably met them before they left. Alternatively, some of the Islefolk could have made a trip back to the Vanyar territory on the mainland and found it had been subjugated by the orcs, bringing this knowledge back to the Green Isle with them.

Tangential speculation about pre-humans

It could be possible that Washraha is actually in an equatorial area of the Old Continent, rather than on an as-yet-unseen southern continent, but I wouldn't much care for this because it would mean that they probably fell to the orcish conquest of the Old Continent before the founding of Wesnoth and thus we'd miss out on any future Wesnoth-Washraha crossover campaigns. A possible variation of this would be that all humanity originally developed on the Old Continent, and some migrated to the southern continent in prehistoric times.

Alternatively, the two landmasses could have been together in the past until separated by continental drift, thus giving rise to humans on the southern continent and orcs on the western (meaning they might have a common ancestor within the past million years or so). Then humanity would have spread out to the west whenever boats became a thing.

Continental drift also helps reconcile the proliferation of horses. It's tempting to say that they originated on the Old Continent and were brought to the Green Isle from there, and onward to Wesnoth, except that the elves are already using horses when Haldric lands on their shores. If they existed on Wesnoth's version of Pangaea, then they could have easily ended up on both continents. Alternatively, they were spread by world-traveling elves. Since Haldric's elven contemporaries had legends about orcs, they had probably been to the old continent before.

[Iris]

As an aside, I thought I would post this link for those reading this topic who might not know that the denomination ‘Vanyar’ is part of an existing property.

[Elfarion]

@johndh:
I'm sorry, it might be because English isn't my native language I'm not sure, if I understand you totally. Please correct:
- The ancestors of Haldric's people (=Vanyar) came from the Old Continent in the distant west. Following whales they found the Green Isle and started to colonize it.
- Later the Southerners found the Green Isle too. They began an irregular, yet steady exchange of goods and culture (and genes) with the Islefolk.
- When the Southerners were driven away from their home, they remembered the island in the north, where they ancestors had been welcomed friendly and where some of their relatives lived. They set sails to the Green Isle, were accepted by the Islefolk and ultimately both cultures merged.
- Later smugglers still manage to escape the secluded coastal area of the Southern Continent, arrive at the Green Isle and trade some goods for a nice profit. However, they keep the ship routes to the Southern Continent and the whereabouts of its inhabitants a secret in order to keep their monopoly.
- So the Green Isle experienced three phases of colonization: By the Vanyar from the West, The refugees from the South, The Wesfolk from the West.
Is this right so far?

@shadowm:
Thanks for the hint. This often happens to phantasy writers: You think of cool name and then it turns out that you actually didn't invent it but read it somewhere and forgot about it.

[revansurik]

As an aside, I thought I would post this link for those reading this topic who might not know that the denomination ‘Vanyar’ is part of an existing property.

Damn, I simply add "yar" to "Vane" and it turns out to be an already existing name... Well, let's change it then... What about Zephyrans? (From Zephyrus, which means 'western')

The Rise of Wesnoth strongly implies (at least in my opinion) that the Islefolk came from the Old Continent in the west, where the Wesfolk and orcs came from. I do like the general idea of the Vanyar starting off as just fishermen who found the Green Isle and didn't think much of it until something made them want to evacuate in a hurry. "Hey, remember that island that your grandfather found during his whaling days?" Since the Vanyar apparently originated on the Old Continent, this would mean it probably wasn't the Washraha who scared them off. I would say they left when the lich lords came to power, but it's established that the Islefolk had no knowledge of magic until the Wesfolk showed up

In my view, the problem with the Islefolk coming from the Old Continent is that it seems weird to think that such a primitive people would find the Green Isle, but the very advanced Wesfolk would not. And the reason I don't think the Wesfolk knew of the Green Isle's existence before being forced to move there is that, if they knew it, they would have certainly built some outpost there; afterwards, with their lands in the Old Continent being lost, they'd have simply turned that outpost into a refuge, or a fortress, and gathered their forces there to re-take their original lands. However, the way the Wesfolk stumbled on the Green Isle, weakened and impoverished (to the point of being defeated by a much less advanced people), seems to suggest that they hurriedly gathered whatever was left of their original civilization and launched themselves to the sea after whatever safer land they could find.
As for the orc thing... Maybe the Islefolk themselves, after defeating the Wesfolk and learning sailing skills, decided to venture into the Old Continent; these sailors, meeting the orcs there, brought back tales about them to the Green Isle.

However, Jessene's assertion that they stumbled upon the island by accident makes this unlikely as the impetus for the migration.

Still, Jessene is a member of a formerly advanced civilization, and one who got owned by a technologically inferior culture, so it doesn't seem unlikely that she's simply being resentful, belittling those she and her countrymen see as inferior - just like the Ancient Greeks considered everyone else as mere barbarians

Plus, I'd like to have at least one human migration that isn't the result of an invasion.

Well, there's the migration on the Hebrews from northern Mesopotamia to Canaan, which is believed to have been prompted by extremely bad weather in Mesopotamia

[Elfarion]

In my view, the problem with the Islefolk coming from the Old Continent is that it seems weird to think that such a primitive people would find the Green Isle, but the very advanced Wesfolk would not.

This is explained easily by saying that the Wesfolk weren't fishermen. They lived far from the coast.

Well, there's the migration on the Hebrews from northern Mesopotamia to Canaan, which is believed to have been prompted by extremely bad weather in Mesopotamia

I think, he was talking about mikgration in Wesnoth history.

[revansurik]

This is explained easily by saying that the Wesfolk weren't fishermen. They lived far from the coast.

However, they were used to sailing, according to Jessene.

I think, he was talking about mikgration in Wesnoth history.

Ah, I see

[Elfarion]

I'm not that familiar with the TRoW dialog, unfortunately. Anyway, I think, we can find a reasonable explanation for that. Maybe the Wesfolk moved to the coast later and thus developed ships later. I also agree with johndh, making the "inferiority" of the Pre-Islefolk not a technological one but rather a cultural one. (Small settlements of farms, huts of clay with roofs of grass, no cities, very few that can read and write, no codified (written) law... stuff like that.

[revansurik]

I also agree with johndh, making the "inferiority" of the Pre-Islefolk not a technological one but rather a cultural one. (Small settlements of farms, huts of clay with roofs of grass, no cities, very few that can read and write, no codified (written) law... stuff like that.

I see... It make sense; if the Islefolk were too inferior, they wouldn't have stood a chance against the Wesfolk...
So, by now we have the Islefolk as the result of a mingling between an Old Continent tribe (Zephyrans until someone finds a better name ) and some tribes of the Southern Continent (hm, should we call it Gondwana?). Everyone fine with this so far? (I say everyone, though there are basically only 3 people in this topic; it would be nice to read more opinions, since this topic's supposed to suggest an expansion to mainline lore and a change to the human faction... )

[Elfarion]

Since the last few posts were only about details, it seems like the three of us had come to some sort of consensus. Zephyrans sounds a bit weird to me, more like a race on its own, not a human tribe, besides we have the Wes(t)folk already.
As for the name of the Southern Continent, I would prefer not to bring in names that mean something in our world. I can't come up with anything else right now either. It's about 1:00 am in Europe and I had some glasses of wine...

[johndh]

I'm sorry, it might be because English isn't my native language I'm not sure, if I understand you totally. Please correct:
- The ancestors of Haldric's people (=Vanyar) came from the Old Continent in the distant west. Following whales they found the Green Isle and started to colonize it.
- Later the Southerners found the Green Isle too. They began an irregular, yet steady exchange of goods and culture (and genes) with the Islefolk.
- When the Southerners were driven away from their home, they remembered the island in the north, where they ancestors had been welcomed friendly and where some of their relatives lived. They set sails to the Green Isle, were accepted by the Islefolk and ultimately both cultures merged.
- Later smugglers still manage to escape the secluded coastal area of the Southern Continent, arrive at the Green Isle and trade some goods for a nice profit. However, they keep the ship routes to the Southern Continent and the whereabouts of its inhabitants a secret in order to keep their monopoly.
- So the Green Isle experienced three phases of colonization: By the Vanyar from the West, The refugees from the South, The Wesfolk from the West.
Is this right so far?

Yes.

In my view, the problem with the Islefolk coming from the Old Continent is that it seems weird to think that such a primitive people would find the Green Isle, but the very advanced Wesfolk would not. And the reason I don't think the Wesfolk knew of the Green Isle's existence before being forced to move there is that, if they knew it, they would have certainly built some outpost there; afterwards, with their lands in the Old Continent being lost, they'd have simply turned that outpost into a refuge, or a fortress, and gathered their forces there to re-take their original lands. However, the way the Wesfolk stumbled on the Green Isle, weakened and impoverished (to the point of being defeated by a much less advanced people), seems to suggest that they hurriedly gathered whatever was left of their original civilization and launched themselves to the sea after whatever safer land they could find.

Two quotes from Jessene in scenario 11 (Southbay in Winter): "Haldric, your people simply washed up here long ago, but my people came here on purpose," and "Learn the lesson of my people. If we had fled here while even one of our great cities still stood we could have taken this Isle with ease. But we fought on until the bitter end. There can be no compromise with the orcs, their numbers are limitless, and you have no way to stop more orcs from coming." This suggests that the Wesfolk did indeed know about the Green Isle and they couldn't really "gather their forces there to re-take their original lands" because they were almost completely wiped out by the orcs. They had no interest in escaping until they had almost gone extinct.

As for the orc thing... Maybe the Islefolk themselves, after defeating the Wesfolk and learning sailing skills, decided to venture into the Old Continent; these sailors, meeting the orcs there, brought back tales about them to the Green Isle.

This seems plausible, and is similar to what I meant by "Alternatively, some of the Islefolk could have made a trip back to the Vanyar territory on the mainland and found it had been subjugated by the orcs, bringing this knowledge back to the Green Isle with them." However, I'm proposing that it happened before the exodus of the Wesfolk. This could even be how the Wesfolk learned of the Green Isle in the first place. Perhaps someone on the island wanted to see the land of the ancestors, setting sail to the west. When they found it ruled by orcs they thought "no, this surely can't be it... let's scout further" and made contact with the Wesfolk who were busy losing their own war against the orcs. The Wesfolk would have learned of the island's location from these travelers, and after a few more years of getting curb stomped, the few survivors figured it was a great place to seek refuge.

Still, Jessene is a member of a formerly advanced civilization, and one who got owned by a technologically inferior culture, so it doesn't seem unlikely that she's simply being resentful, belittling those she and her countrymen see as inferior - just like the Ancient Greeks considered everyone else as mere barbarians

This is a strong possibility.

[Elfarion]

So, to sum up, what we have elaborated so far, the timeline would look like this (suggested changes in italics)

Prehistory
- Elves and Dwarves inhabit the Great Continent.
- Humans inhabit the distant West and the South.
- Haldric's people (need a name) discover the Green Isle when they follow the route of the whales. They set up a small settlement that grows when more of their people migrate to the Green Isle. colonise the Green Isle from a continent further to the west.
- Later the first humans from the South arrive at the Green Isle. A steady exchange with the Westerners begins.
(History of the South needs further elaboration.)
- The humans of the Green Isle set up an expedition to the West to search for the land of their ancestors. When they find the coast of the Western Continent inhabited by hostile Orcs, they scout further into the inner continent and make contact with the Wesfolk, telling them that they come from an island in the East.
- When the Southerners are forced to leave their homeland, they remember their relatives in the north and emigrate to the Green Isle. Both cultures ultimately merge and they start to refer to themselves as the "Islefolk" because they don't have any relation to their former homeland anymore.

200 BW
- The Lich-Lords arrive on the Green Isle after losing a war in the distant West.
...

[revansurik]

- Humans inhabit the distant West and the South.

I think it should be written as "Humans inhabit two continents beyond the Great Ocean"; saying that they come from the south could cause some confusion, since it would sound like they come from the south of the Great Continent.

- Haldric's people (need a name) discover the Green Isle when they follow the route of the whales. They set up a small settlement that grows when more of their people migrate to the Green Isle. colonise the Green Isle from a continent further to the west.

Haldric's people are a mix of Westerners and Southerners, but here we're talking only about the Westerners, so how about this: "The (suggested name) Aeserian tribe of the Old Continent discover the Green Isle when they follow the route of the whales. They set up a small settlement that grows when more of their people migrate to the Green Isle."

- The humans of the Green Isle set up an expedition to the West to search for the land of their ancestors. When they find the coast of the Western Continent inhabited by hostile Orcs, they scout further into the inner continent and make contact with the Wesfolk, telling them that they come from an island in the East.

Hmm, the thought of the Islefolk searching for the Wesfolk and telling them about their island sounds a bit weird to me... Maybe it'd be better if the travelling Islefolk were found by the Wesfolk, and then coerced to tell of their homeland? This could also serve as pretext for the beginning of their enmity.

(History of the South needs further elaboration.)

We could make some paragraphs for an in-game section, like the one that tells of Morogor (go to the drakes' description and you'll see a link to the Morogor page); johndh has wrote some on the Washraha already - though the Southerners that go to the Green Isle, if I got it right, are not the Washraha, but another people.

[Elfarion]

I think it should be written as "Humans inhabit two continents beyond the Great Ocean"; saying that they come from the south could cause some confusion, since it would sound like they come from the south of the Great Continent.

I agree on that.

Haldric's people are a mix of Westerners and Southerners, but here we're talking only about the Westerners, so how about this: "The (suggested name) Aeserian tribe of the Old Continent discover the Green Isle when they follow the route of the whales. They set up a small settlement that grows when more of their people migrate to the Green Isle."

Since I didn't have a name for them I left it as "Haldric's people" I did not intend to cause misunderstandings. Aeserian sounds good to me.

Hmm, the thought of the Islefolk searching for the Wesfolk and telling them about their island sounds a bit weird to me... Maybe it'd be better if the travelling Islefolk were found by the Wesfolk, and then coerced to tell of their homeland? This could also serve as pretext for the beginning of their enmity.

This would serve as a good explanation but what would the Wesfolk make force the Aeserians to tell about their origin? And if the Aeserians would consider the Wesfolk their relatives, they would have no reason to conceal their origin. Another possibilitiy could be that the Wesfolk heard from the Orcs about some ships that came from the east.

johndh has wrote some on the Washraha already - though the Southerners that go to the Green Isle, if I got it right, are not the Washraha, but another people.

That's what I suggested: The Washraha would be a highly evolved culture - again not in the technoligical sense - with a need for workforce and soldiers. So the Southerners that became the other half of the Islefolk's ancestors migrated to escape the Washrahan slave traders.

[johndh]

though the Southerners that go to the Green Isle, if I got it right, are not the Washraha, but another people.

That's what I suggested: The Washraha would be a highly evolved culture - again not in the technoligical sense - with a need for workforce and soldiers. So the Southerners that became the other half of the Islefolk's ancestors migrated to escape the Washrahan slave traders.

Originally, I had only conceived of it being one nation, but this makes more sense now that I know it was one nation among many surrounding smaller cultures. Thus, the southerners who moved to the island would be a mix of Washrahan people fleeing the oppressive regime and those from the surrounding peoples that are victims of their naval raids. Not every group joined Tarva Pah in his campaign against the giant Deshra, so there are many ethnically similar tribes and city-states in the area who are still vulnerable to giants and now also have to defend against Washrahan raiders. These are people who would be very motivated to get away, paying merchants for passage or taking control of the ships and piloting them to the island. "You take us somewhere far away, or we feed you to the sharks with the rest of your crew."

A slave labor force would be useful in constructing and maintaining their extensive navy and the aforementioned wall around the kingdom, as well as various other publics works such as extensive irrigation, dams, aqueducts, fortifications, palaces, monuments, etc., giving them a highly evolved culture indeed. They could also learn a lot from the slaves because many of them would be skilled professionals like artisans, healers, and architects. I'm not sure I like that idea, though, as I prefer to think of them as a kingdom that stagnates due to xenophobia, like feudal Japan or the latter days of Sparta. While everyone else in the world is busy exchanging ideas and learning from each other, Washraha is sealed off from the outside world, ironically viewing all of its neighbors as savages even though those savages are busy inventing dentistry and paper. They acquire the inventions of these other groups through violence, but they don't learn how to make them themselves because they think they can just go on robbing forever. As centuries pass, Washraha falls more and more behind the times until at some point they presumably have a rude awakening at the hands of some other nation when they find that their wall isn't so impregnable, their crude iron arrowheads don't punch through steel armor, and horses can apparently be domesticated.

However, my main concern with the whole slavery aspect of things is that this would mean the only dark-skinned people on Irdya also happen to be the only major group of slaves we know about. I mean, the slavery angle can make sense, but I'm not sure I want to travel that road. I think Washraha would be perfectly content to sit behind their wall, growing fat and happy off of their stolen goods. This is why I think I would prefer if they were pirates and pillagers rather than slavers. If anything, they could have enslaved many of the giants that they defeated and wouldn't really have a need for any more than that.