Knalgan guide

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krotop
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Re: Knalgan guide

Post by krotop »

Having an ulf on 1st recruit can be ok in my opinion, and rather fun. If that matters, I am personnaly against putting an official advice discouraging to do so.
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Re: Knalgan guide

Post by Turuk »

krotop wrote: I am personnaly against putting an official advice discouraging to do
While much of what he puts in the guide is proven useful strategy, such a disclaimer would not hurt. Along the lines of:

"This guide provides advice and strategy based on what has proven successful for numerous players, however, you may find that your play style enables you to use your unit in a way that is not in keeping with some of the advice offered here. This guide is offered to aid newer players, and so some of the more veteran players may indeed find they have more unique strategies of their own."
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Re: Knalgan guide

Post by Wintermute »

krotop wrote:Having an ulf on 1st recruit can be ok in my opinion, and rather fun. If that matters, I am personnaly against putting an official advice discouraging to do so.
Well, if you are playing to win, then it seems like a risky thing to do. What happens if you are grunt rushed? Or even if you are not rushed by anything, ulfs cannot apply their ZoC very well, and sometimes that is quite important in the early game. If you don't have the units to protect it from gosts or drake fighters or whatever, then it becomes a problem.
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Re: Knalgan guide

Post by Alpha »

Wintermute wrote:
krotop wrote:Having an ulf on 1st recruit can be ok in my opinion, and rather fun. If that matters, I am personnaly against putting an official advice discouraging to do so.
Well, if you are playing to win, then it seems like a risky thing to do. What happens if you are grunt rushed? Or even if you are not rushed by anything, ulfs cannot apply their ZoC very well, and sometimes that is quite important in the early game. If you don't have the units to protect it from gosts or drake fighters or whatever, then it becomes a problem.
I have to admit, recruiting an ulf on the first turn only to find a rush of melee units is not fun at all. It can sometimes pay off unexpectedly too though, so it's hard to judge.

Definitely a sound guide though, concise and succinct, yet detailed enough to provide very useful information.

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Re: Knalgan guide

Post by krotop »

Wintermute wrote: Well, if you are playing to win, then it seems like a risky thing to do.
It is probably more risky than a more defensive recruit, like for any faction I suppose. So yes, if the reader is a cautious player gaming to win, I would discourage him to go for an ulf on 1st recruit. I would probably discourage Hodor style too, but I must admit I'm not so much experienced in that styleplay to affirm it.
Wintermute wrote:What happens if you are grunt rushed?
If the reader is a cautious player, I would discourage also the grunt rush, dwarves are well equipped to counter that sort of strategy and undeads can be a problem for that recruit pattern too as far as I know. The ulf is a bad choice obviously, but I suppose you could still temporize decently if you had a guard and a fighter too.
Wintermute wrote:If you don't have the units to protect it from gosts or drake fighters or whatever, then it becomes a problem.
Facing these 2 factions, I can hardly think of a safe undead or drake recruit pattern that makes the ulf useless for the 1st night. But as you pointed, if the player doesn't recruit units to protect his ulf, then he shouldn't recruit an ulf in the 1st place, I'm not sure this argument adds something to your point.
Wintermute wrote: Or even if you are not rushed by anything, ulfs cannot apply their ZoC very well, and sometimes that is quite important in the early game.
Right, though they can eventually remove safely a key unit, which can be as much important. It's ambivalent as Alpha said, so I guess we could spend much time enumerating situations where it's good or not to have an ulf. We both agree that it is more risky to get one before seeing what the opponent possesses on the field though.

As a side note, our point of view might differ from our game experience, since I'm playing mostly 2vs2, I could have bias thinking that having early an ulf worths more the risk because it is, indeed, less risky (your ally can compensate a lack in your 1st recruit) and as much valuable than for 1vs1.
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Re: Knalgan guide

Post by Velensk »

I do agree that an ulfserker on the first turn isn't the safest idea. It effectivly reduces the number of units you can use for early protection. Generaly I wait till tun 3/4.

Against most enemies/stratagies it won't be fatal because you will get backed up before fighting happens. However chaotic/saurian rushes do happen, and ulfserkers though they have decent odds of being able to kill an enemy will probably be unable to turn a profit.
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Re: Knalgan guide

Post by Wintermute »

krotop wrote:As a side note, our point of view might differ from our game experience, since I'm playing mostly 2vs2, I could have bias thinking that having early an ulf worths more the risk because it is, indeed, less risky (your ally can compensate a lack in your 1st recruit) and as much valuable than for 1vs1.
That is true. I think the thing to keep in mind here is that the guide is intended (I think?) for players that are having a hard time playing Knalgans, or frustrated with them, or learning the game. If you keep losing your games as Knalgans, I think it is likely that ulf use is a part of the problem, so the reader should be encouraged to play carefully, IMO. Experienced players will no doubt have different opinions on various parts of the guide, or what to do in a given situation.
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Re: Knalgan guide

Post by JW »

Wintermute wrote:
krotop wrote:As a side note, our point of view might differ from our game experience, since I'm playing mostly 2vs2, I could have bias thinking that having early an ulf worths more the risk because it is, indeed, less risky (your ally can compensate a lack in your 1st recruit) and as much valuable than for 1vs1.
That is true. I think the thing to keep in mind here is that the guide is intended (I think?) for players that are having a hard time playing Knalgans, or frustrated with them, or learning the game. If you keep losing your games as Knalgans, I think it is likely that ulf use is a part of the problem, so the reader should be encouraged to play carefully, IMO. Experienced players will no doubt have different opinions on various parts of the guide, or what to do in a given situation.
I believe Velensk's guide was geared to a higher skill level of player; at least relative to the HTP series.
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Re: Knalgan guide

Post by Wintermute »

Velensk wrote:The Knalgan Alliance

The Knalgan Alliance is my favorite faction, and it is also one of the hardest factions to play well. It has no magic, the dwarves are slow and terrain dependant, and the outlaws either do not hit very hard, or die relatively easily. However the knalgan alliance does have much to offer, and is in my opinion is very fun to play. This is a guide aimed at players who’ve figured out the basics, but are having problems with the faction. Also designed to give a more updated version of the how to play series advice on each match-up. It is only designed for use in multiplayer on mainline 1vs1, or standard to large sized 2vs2s with standard settings.
JW wrote:I believe Velensk's guide was geared to a higher skill level of player; at least relative to the HTP series.
:hmm: My interpretation of "Dwarves are slow" and "Figured out the basics but are having problems with the faction" leads me to assume that we are still using the "kid gloves", at least to some extent. Seriously though, at high levels of play most aspects of strategy are so situation-dependent (and maybe quite debatable anyway) that a "guide" for anything other than beginner-intermediate play is problematic at best IMO.
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Re: Knalgan guide

Post by Grand Marshal Aditya »

Nice thread; I play Khalgans regularly too. I liked your breakdowns of each of the matchups. Another point, maybe to be noted, is that Khalgans do well when they expand slowly. And, by expand, I mean their lines. Gryphons and footpads can run around and get villages but the main line should be carefully maintained and a retreat path should always be made available to every unit.
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Re: Knalgan guide

Post by Pentarctagon »

nice guide, a few points though. i play mostly as rebels, and ulfs are usually not that difficult for me to kill. an archer can possibly kill it from good terrain, a wose is especially a good counter to an ulf (can almost always kill furing the day, and even at night in many situations), a fighter is about equal to it in most aspects (like you said), and if it gets slowed...then it's dead 99% of the time no matter what. the unit i have the hardest time with is the thunderer. he's got a heavy damage ranged attack, so you can't effectively mage/range him (otherwise my favorite way of dealing with knalgan) without likely taking a heavy hit or two. he's got a 6-2 melee, which while not powerful, is still a somewhat effective counter to the fighter's 4-4. then if you haven't damaged him enough to force a retreat/kill him, you face an 18-1 attack, which will either kill one of your unit or force it to retreat at least. take that and stick it on a hill with a couple support units and it's very difficult to effectively dislodge without taking a large amount of damage.

i'd say that the dwarf fighters are my favorite unit to fight, since on my turn my elf fighters can whittle away their health with range while they have to use melee to attack on their turn. then when they have taken some damage and would retreat i bring in a wose or a mage (or sometimes an archer depending on the situation and TOD) to deal the finishing blows.
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Re: Knalgan guide

Post by silent »

Pentarctagon wrote:nice guide, a few points though. i play mostly as rebels, and ulfs are usually not that difficult for me to kill. an archer can possibly kill it from good terrain, a wose is especially a good counter to an ulf (can almost always kill furing the day, and even at night in many situations), a fighter is about equal to it in most aspects (like you said), and if it gets slowed...then it's dead 99% of the time no matter what. the unit i have the hardest time with is the thunderer. he's got a heavy damage ranged attack, so you can't effectively mage/range him (otherwise my favorite way of dealing with knalgan) without likely taking a heavy hit or two. he's got a 6-2 melee, which while not powerful, is still a somewhat effective counter to the fighter's 4-4. then if you haven't damaged him enough to force a retreat/kill him, you face an 18-1 attack, which will either kill one of your unit or force it to retreat at least. take that and stick it on a hill with a couple support units and it's very difficult to effectively dislodge without taking a large amount of damage.

i'd say that the dwarf fighters are my favorite unit to fight, since on my turn my elf fighters can whittle away their health with range while they have to use melee to attack on their turn. then when they have taken some damage and would retreat i bring in a wose or a mage (or sometimes an archer depending on the situation and TOD) to deal the finishing blows.
Thunderer, if on a hill or mountain should just be ignored and not approached, except with a poison unit, because once it steps off that hex, it's dead meat for fighters.
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Re: Knalgan guide

Post by Pentarctagon »

sadly, elves do not have poison. also, not approaching them is usually notan option since most players will try and use the thunderer's fire-power as often as possible.
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Re: Knalgan guide

Post by thespaceinvader »

HOwever, if you let them come to you, you pick the battle ground, and you pick what defence you're on. With thundies, in particular, it's useful to use your manoeuvrability to take their good terrain, rather than to utilise yours. You have 60% on mountains. They have 30% on forests.
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Re: Knalgan guide

Post by Velensk »

nice guide, a few points though. i play mostly as rebels, and ulfs are usually not that difficult for me to kill. an archer can possibly kill it from good terrain, a wose is especially a good counter to an ulf (can almost always kill furing the day, and even at night in many situations), a fighter is about equal to it in most aspects (like you said), and if it gets slowed...then it's dead 99% of the time no matter what. the unit i have the hardest time with is the thunderer. he's got a heavy damage ranged attack, so you can't effectively mage/range him (otherwise my favorite way of dealing with knalgan) without likely taking a heavy hit or two. he's got a 6-2 melee, which while not powerful, is still a somewhat effective counter to the fighter's 4-4. then if you haven't damaged him enough to force a retreat/kill him, you face an 18-1 attack, which will either kill one of your unit or force it to retreat at least. take that and stick it on a hill with a couple support units and it's very difficult to effectively dislodge without taking a large amount of damage.

i'd say that the dwarf fighters are my favorite unit to fight, since on my turn my elf fighters can whittle away their health with range while they have to use melee to attack on their turn. then when they have taken some damage and would retreat i bring in a wose or a mage (or sometimes an archer depending on the situation and TOD) to deal the finishing blows.
It sounds to me like you havn't been playing good knalgan players. I may be wrong, but some of your comments just sound like your opponent does not know what he was doing.

My guide does specifically mention that an archer can beat an ulfserker if standing in good terrain depending on traits. However that shouldn not be a huge thing. Don't stand your ulfserkers next to unprotected forests, don't use them against archers they can't kill. Just keep them where they can slaughter any non-melee unit who exposes it. The threat factor counts for lots.

A good knalgan player should not be letting you attack his ulfserkers untill after they have made a kill, especially not with woses at day consitering how slow they are.

Your unit for removing thunderers from a hard spot is the wose. Fighters work fine when the thunderer is not in good terrain.

You can continually weaken a fighter, but if this requires you to expose yourself, it is quite possible for your opponent to make it so that it isn't worth it. If your opponent cannot make it so that it isn't worth it to attack him, then he probably should have retreated.

Edit: an extesnvie amount of editing to solve a glitch in the quote and to clean up my own speach.
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