Can anyone consistently beat HttT scenarios on hard?

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Gus
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Post by Gus »

Clonkinator wrote:@Gus: Well, I'm currently not running HttT, but I can restart it if you want and then post the replays. Does that sound okay for you?
Only do that if you actually have an interest in playing the game again =P I'll certainly watch those replays, and others might be interested, but it's up to you if you want to spend time on it. Cheers =)
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Clonkinator
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Post by Clonkinator »

Okay then, I started to run it again, and here are the first few replays. Unfortunitally I had a lot of bad luck yet... But I didn't save the replays I lost in. However, here they are:
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HTTT_HARD_Clonkinator's_Replays Scenario 01-05.zip
The first five replays.
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Gus
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Post by Gus »

Thanks a lot, i'll be watching this =)

EDIT: Using labels was a terrific idea! Cheers for that =)

EDIT2: WOW. You let Elrian die?! Aren't loyal units very important? I used to go to great lengths to protect them.
Hard work may pay off in the long run, but laziness always pays off right away.
Yogibear
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Post by Yogibear »

Hi guys, i made a thread for problems with savegames and replays. You can post your corrupted replays here:
http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15314

And there is a good chance i can fix them :wink: .
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Clonkinator
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Post by Clonkinator »

Yeah, had some bad luck with Elrian... But didn't want to restart the scenario again.
Gus
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Post by Gus »

I've tried like a billion times (at least, i swear!), and i definitely can't beat Siege of Elensefar (on Hard) satisfyingly (which means not losing loyal units, mainly).
I've tried watching Kalis's replay over and over, but i just can't figure out how to survive... Add to this the frustration of seeing my loyal Outlaw or Thieves get hit 3/3 by Warlords or Crossbows, and i'm on the verge of putting the comp to fire.

Could anyone be so kind as to see if he can beat this using my scenario, and in the process, explain to me what i'm obviously missing?
Also, if you provide a replay, i'd like it to be one where your luck is at _most_ average (i'm not interested in seeing a replay where a key unit was exposed and didn't die against all odds, i'm interested in seeing how you can survive when your druid misses its slow twice, and then the unit proceeds to kill your leader in a keep by hitting with all three attacks...).

Kind thanks gentlemen, and here's the savegame.
Attachments
The_Siege_of_Elensefar.zip
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Last edited by Gus on February 26th, 2007, 12:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Kalis
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Post by Kalis »

I didn't watch the replay, but here's what I did for Siege of Elensefar in my no loss campaign :) Hope it helps.
If you still can't solve the mission, I'll take a look at the clip.
(Hehe sorry, right now I'm completely focused on with the cursed lancers on mission 23 - the Horse Lords. Their potential to do 90 damage in 1 attack is just disgusting - I think the only way to beat them is with your own lancers and launching a preemptive strike - which means bad luck = restarting sigh).

HttT6: Siege of Elensefar - Finished turn /29.
Army Used:
Cavalry: Grand Knight(Simyr), Paladin(Haldiel), 1 Knight (IR), 1 Horseman(SR), 1 Outrider(DS), 2 Riders(RQ, SR), Scout(QR)
Infantry: 1 Avenger(RI), 1 Ranger(SR), 2 Thieves, 1 Rogue
Magic: 2 Mages(Elrian, SR), 1 White Mage(QR), 1 Elvish Druid(IR)
Water: 1 Mermen Warrior(Trident, LR)

Lots of attempts.
This was the map I was fearing, and I configured my whole army for it. Definitely the toughest map in the whole campaign (mainly because you don't have a huge retinue yet).
In hindsight, I should of tried to get at least 1 Red Mage on Isle of Anduin (Mages being completely useless at Bay of Pearls and Muff Malal's).
I tried 2-4 different strategies before I finally settled on this one. Even with an optimized strategy, there was an aspect of luck.
Main Points:
- Quickly ran army into the city to seize high defense locations.
- Focus on killing crossbows and orcs, eliminate assassins only if they're blocking your way.
- Once the orcs are defeated, charge forward while it's still daytime to take out some skellies.
Things got dangerous on turn 10, when I had to position that knight in front and it got hit by 3 skeleton archers and a skeleton! That's 7-9 + 6-3 vs 68hp, 40% defense.
Oh, and Konrad became a Commander here :D

Oh here are 3 failed attempts as well.
Attachments
HttT6_The_Siege_of_Elensefar_replay.zip
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Siege of Elensefar failed.zip
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santi
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Post by santi »

In Elensafar I split the army in 3: One part(mostly horse-based units) went west, where the thieves suggested. Another went east. This forced the orcs to split their forces, most of them went west and then a combined 3-front attack west, east and center easily carried the day. When the undead arrived I had plently of fresh units to shield my wounded ones
while they recovered. Next stage was to hold the northern entrance of the city and beat the undead waves there and the final stage was the pinch point at the undead cave entrace.
Gus
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Post by Gus »

Kalis wrote:I didn't watch the replay, but here's what I did for Siege of Elensefar in my no loss campaign :) Hope it helps.
You've got a HUGE recall list o.O Haldiel a Pally, Simyr a GK, already one Outrider... I don't have that much, and i thought i had levelled pretty well.
Could you please take a look at my savegame, at least to comment on the recall list, please? I'll try making a run for the bottom villages and see what it gives. Up to now, i "copied" your strategy in the set of replays you gave here.
Hard work may pay off in the long run, but laziness always pays off right away.
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grzywacz
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Post by grzywacz »

This would normally answer your question, but is broken for some obscure reason:

http://stats.wesnoth.org/?W_CAMPAIGN=CA ... SION=1.2.1

:?
Kalis
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Post by Kalis »

ACK! When did 1.2.2 come out?! :shock:
I just tried to watch it, and it wouldn't let me.

I'm still on 1.2.1, and I'm not upgrading till I finish this no-loss so I can post it :: laughs ::
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Wintermute
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Post by Wintermute »

Gus wrote:Could anyone be so kind as to see if he can beat this using my scenario, and in the process, explain to me what i'm obviously missing?
Also, if you provide a replay, i'd like it to be one where your luck is at _most_ average (i'm not interested in seeing a replay where a key unit was exposed and didn't die against all odds, i'm interested in seeing how you can survive when your druid misses its slow twice, and then the unit proceeds to kill your leader in a keep by hitting with all three attacks...).

Kind thanks gentlemen, and here's the savegame.
Gus, here is a replay. I did have slightly good luck overall (about 3.5% better than my EV), but I wouldn't say it was a deciding factor. I finished on turn 20 (out of 29), so serious bad luck would have resulted in slower play, a few losses, and a little less than the 521 gold going into the next scenario. If you would like, I could give it a second try.

Comments on my replay:
17 units
4 advancements (2 on Konrad)
3 losses (thief rogue and elvish fighter)
I expected to take a few more losses than that, but I had a few times where a unit survived against the odds. These cases we all other expendable units like thieves and fighters with few xp.

You had mentioned not losing loyal units, and I did lose the rogue and a thief, but those units are so unimportant to the latter campaign (IMO) that I saw no reason to protect all 4 of them, and the losses were protecting knights, which wouldn't have needed any protecting if there were any elvish heroes to be had! (see below)

I would have used fewer loyal units, but there were few other choices form the recruit list.

Units I wish I'd had:
1. Konrad with more than 12 xp!!!
2. lancer rather than second knight.
3. more red magi! Only one lvl 2 mage with no xp? and non in training?
With a little more starting gold I would have gotten two more magi and started leveling them, but oh well.
4. elvish hero(s) or better. The lack of any heroes or even an avenger hurt a lot, but the knights were enough to get the job done in this case.

From your recall list, I'm going to go out on a limb here doubt the fact that you have a long-term strategy about where to put xp. Konrad going into the scenario with 12xp is EGREGIOUS! There is also a lot of work going into leveling scouts. Why? In multiplayer a leveled scout can be potent, but they are so flimsy as to be almost worthless in combat IMO. Even the strong resilient one that I used was hard to protect. Perhaps it is just my play style, but I would probably not try to level a scout (or even get one!) in HttT even after I have enough leveled combat units.

Anyway, I don't mean to be overly critical. Your recall list was good enough to work I think. I think that your frustration would be greatly eased if you start the campaign over and think carefully about what units are the priority for easy xp.

One final comment, I wouldn't put as much emphasis on loyal units. They are useful, and it is great to recruit several of them early to avoid getting hit with high upkeep, but would your rather have a strong resilient lancer, or a loyal intelligent one? They aren't any good if they die!

O.K., LAST final comment: Going the Muff Mal route rather than Isle of the Damned is important if your regular troops aren't sufficiently leveled. You can get your hero(s) there, rather than some more merman and thugs. Even though you don't get any bonus for killing Muff Mal as far as I know (is that bug?)

good luck!
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Replay_Impossible_Elensefar.zip
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Gus
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Post by Gus »

Thank you for the detailed answer and, obviously, for taking the time to play using my save =)

I'll answer in more details later (i'm just back from soccer and very hungry ^^), but , for many of your comments about unit choice/levelling, the answer is simply that i followed Kalis's example. Not that i think it's the best way (nor the worst, of course), but it seemed to me a perfectly valid strategy when i viewed all his HttT replays (you can find them there). It does rely on using scouts to capture villages and distract the enemy, and i thought it was an interesting approach, but i understand it's not a "mainstream" way of tackling a campaign, which might explain why you seem to think many decisions were bad.
Or, they are simply bad and i talk too much =P
As for your luck being slightly positive, i don't mind. My comment was just to prevent "extraordinary" luck. I remember watching a couple of replays of a "no loss" campaign, and in numerous occasions, a unit survived only because the opponent missed 3 times @ 40%. This is not acceptable as a "demo". When it happens, it's fine, but as a learner, you can't use that as reliable information. Same for the loyal units. I don't mind losing two out of the four thieves (or a couple of mermen). I would have minded you losing a Knight, Elrian, the Outlaw, and all the Thieves ^^ Then again, maybe you're right and i emphasize loyal units too much.
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Kalis
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Post by Kalis »

Wintermute:
I find leveled scouts very useful early in the campaign.
a) they're the only 10-11 speed unit you have access to until gryphons (which is after mission 18 or so).

b) Resilient/strong outriders have only 68 HP, while resilient/quick ones have 59. However, they have 60% defense in villages and forests. If you stick them in grass, they're definitely useless. But in forest and villages they're very useful.

c) They're suicidable :) Since they do become weaker as the game continues, you can sacrifice them without hurting yourself too badly.
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Wintermute
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Post by Wintermute »

Gus wrote:Thank you for the detailed answer and, obviously, for taking the time to play using my save =)
Sure! I enjoy taking "impossible" challenges. :wink:
Gus wrote:Kalis's example...does rely on using scouts to capture villages and distract the enemy, and i thought it was an interesting approach, but i understand it's not a "mainstream" way of tackling a campaign, which might explain why you seem to think many decisions were bad.
I think scouts are fun, and I use them in multiplayer and when I first went through HttT back in the day. The thing is, I really hate replaying scenarios multiple times in a campaign, so the past few times I've played HttT though I have been more interested in attempting to do it without losing any. Unfornatlly, my last two attempts both ended when Li'sar showed up - one mistake, one crazy luck. After taking this approach, I find that there are no circumstances that I would rather have a scout than a fighter or archer. It doesn't really matter how quickly you can take villages because when faced with hordes of enemy units scouts (even riders) often can't take the attacks of even two enemy units, making them mostly dead weight in your army. Not only that, but if you have an Outrider, that is a level three unit that you are paying upkeep for while not getting much real value out of, aside from taking 2-3 villages a turn or two earlier.

I think you get a much better value for your gold by taking a quick archer or two and making them into your "Ranger combat scouts". Only 7 vs. 10-11 movement, but they have better resists and def, AND deal more damage, so they live longer after meeting the enemy.

Anyway, that's my two cents.

EDIT:
Kalis,
I would grant you (a), but the question I have is why do you need a speed 11 unit when playing on Hard? You can run out and take a village, but if you have to fall back before your troops can arrive and hold the line, I would debate the usefulness of putting gold into the endeavor.

(b) How many scouts do you have to recruit before you get a strong/resilient one? One? Seven? Who knows, and if not resilient then they are even less able to stay in combat. Scouts have 40% in villages (on grass), Riders have 50%? I don't know about Outriders, because I never get that far! But getting 60% village defense at level 3 is not really justification for all the xp, IMO. In forests, your still better off with archers/rangers.
Kalis wrote:c) They're suicidable :) Since they do become weaker as the game continues, you can sacrifice them without hurting yourself too badly.
Any unit that you have fed some 100xp is NOT a throwaway unit, in my book anyway. As you point out, they become weaker (or less useful anyway) as the campaign continues... so why spend xp developing a unit that will not give you any return? I can't imagine a situation in HttT when I would rather have an Outrider over an Avenger, but perhaps that is just me.

Of course no one would be foolish enough to argue that there is only one way to win. :D Each to their own, and may our paths cross again on the battlefield :P
Last edited by Wintermute on February 26th, 2007, 10:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"I just started playing this game a few days ago, and I already see some balance issues."
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