Is there a point to non-archer elven units?

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JW
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Post by JW »

Higher Game wrote:Pillager, surely some of those scouts leveled up, right? And if so, how? They're incredibly weak, even in the forest.
It's all in the micro-management of xp, and using favorable terrain and attacking situations. Using all Scouts is abnormal, though it is a testament to what can be done using innovative strategies.
scott
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Post by scott »

Scouts aren't all that weak. They're almost a hybrid between fighters and archers. In this game you have to be really careful with all units because they can all die easily under the right conditions. As you gain more experience, you'll get better at knowing at what point you have to start being careful with each type of unit. They're all generally useful in fulfilling their own roles.
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Post by Flametrooper »

Elvish Pillager wrote:I've reached the cave scenarios in the HttT campaign recruiting nothing but Elvish Scouts. Don't underestimate them too much.

In the first scenario I sometimes get one or two Scouts to grab villages and then help a little in the battle(s). In the second I sometimes get one to steal my ally's villages. Believe it or not, the Siege of Elensefar is awesome for using an only-scouts strategy, although it's probably necessary to have a few advanced units, including a high-level Konrad. (You also might want to switch strategies before fighting the Skeletons.) Scouts are nice in Northern Winter because they are your best unit for grabbing villages, except maybe Gryphons (and Gryphons are much costiler.)
I'm trying that with only shamans, because I love shamans and their levelups. I'm on the Siege of Elensfar, but then I only started yesterday. I do not recruit anything but shamans, however I do level up my heroes and those 2 Loyal dudes, Haldiel and Elrian. Let's see if I can win this way.
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zookeeper
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Post by zookeeper »

Higher Game wrote:As it is now, even with an enemy at 2 hit points, they only kill it about half the time because of their inaccuracy. Taking along 2 shamans to kill a single enemy with 2-4 hit points is simply ridiculous. I take more fighters instead, who at least stand a chance of surviving.
Half the time is ok (although it's very annoying when they miss both swings). Whenever there's a unit with 1-4 hitpoints, I try to get the kill with a shaman (or some other unit that really needs the xp, but let's assume for now it's a shaman). I make sure though that if she fails, I can collect the kill with some other unit and also still protect her. Even if you get the kill for the shaman only about every other time, but try to get one every time there's a 1-4hp enemy in range, you should be able to still level them reasonably quickly.
Noy
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Post by Noy »

my two cents:
Is there a point to non-archer elven units?
Yes, its called "winning a game"
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Post by Flametrooper »

p-owned....
(sorry,couldn't resist)
Kamamura
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Post by Kamamura »

At the topic of scouts - if I may - I think the combat ability is not only criteria to judge a unit. You must also judge how well they fulfil their designated role.

And the role of scouts is not engaging in heavy combat situations. Its value lies in speed, in the ability to evade the enemy lines, to capture unprotected villages, and so on. Occassionally, scouts may do light skirmishes, engage wounded or retreating units, massacre weak units - like in real warfare.

In chess, there is a saying that a threat is sometimes stronger than its exectution. In certain situations, the sole threat of enemy scout penetrating your lines and capture number of villages means that the enemy must leave guards behind, weakening his main front (resources are limited), and in this way, the scout benefit indirectly, many times even more efficiently than by direct killing. Loyalist heavy infantry sure hits hard, but can it run down an elven scout? No, and therefore it's sometimes less valuable.

And if you look at how good is elven scout as a scout, you will see that it's not so bad. Sure he has weak attack, weaker than other scout, but he has 70% defense in forest, and that's a lot! It means that unless it is surrounded (and it's hard to surround a mobile unit), it takes much stronger force to effectively stop him from what he should do (penetrate and pillage). Even if he takes a hit, he may run and heal in some village. It's an important strategic unit.

So, I would not be so harsh in judging the unit. It all depends on terrain, tactical situation, opposition, and other factors, but I would not be so hasty to declare the unit useless.
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Thrawn
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Post by Thrawn »

Flametrooper wrote: I'm trying that with only shamans, because I love shamans and their levelups. I'm on the Siege of Elensfar, but then I only started yesterday. I do not recruit anything but shamans, however I do level up my heroes and those 2 Loyal dudes, Haldiel and Elrian. Let's see if I can win this way.
I've just finished SoE with only mages and shamans...they actually kick major @$$! I have 3 sorceresses, 1 Enchantress, 2 druids, 1 Shyde, 1 WM, 1 RM, a mage and then a Paladin from Hadriel
...please remember that "IT'S" ALWAYS MEANS "IT IS" and "ITS" IS WHAT YOU USE TO INDICATE POSSESSION BY "IT".--scott

this goes for they're/their/there as well
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Elvish_Pillager
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Post by Elvish_Pillager »

Higher Game wrote:Pillager, surely some of those scouts leveled up, right? And if so, how? They're incredibly weak, even in the forest.
Yes, they leveled up.

The key thing about scouts is that they're really, really fast. So if I have a horde of scouts, I can by next turn have a horde of scouts anywhere or everywhere on the battlefield. Also, you get lots of gold in campaigns; with hordes of scouts, you can have a *much* wider battlefront, which the enemy won't have enough troops to engage fully. (Other troops aren't so mobile.)

My usual tactic is to completely surround enemy units with scouts, dealing damage and gaining the scouts XP, while taking very little damage due to my ability to attack well in either range. Also, I put lower XP scouts in less safe positions.
It's all fun and games until someone loses a lawsuit. Oh, and by the way, sending me private messages won't work. :/ If you must contact me, there's an e-mail address listed on the website in my profile.
energyman76c
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Post by energyman76c »

Shamans are one of the most important units in this game.

don't forget -they level up to shydes - which fly.

This will save your ass in the levels with mountains (like Gryphon mountain), help to grab villages (northern winter), and are a fast healing unit over the water (ford of abez, maybe bay of pearls). They are also usefull for weaking opponents so other units can collect easy kills. Dwarven doors you can level up several units when you put some units into the forests on the left side, backed by a shyde...

If I don't have at least 2 Shydes when I reach Gryphon Mountain, I restart, because I made some really big mistakes.

Scouts are usefull, because they are fast in the forests - ideal for hit&run tactis to weaken the opponent. Also good for grabbing villages or escorting more valuable units (Konrad, Delfador, Kalenz).

About fighters - it seems to be stupid to recruit a fighter, if you can get an archer. But at some point you'll have to fight enemy archers - and and elvish hero or champion will be the perfect unit for that job, while an elvish captain or marshall will help with the levl1 units. In the valley of the dead an elvish marshall, a druid, sylph and Kalenz in the forest on the eastern side will withstand waves and waves of walking dead, until they level up nicely.

So fighters are very valuable units - if you use them right.

Archers against grunts&trolls, shamans to weaken grunts&trolls and make them less dangerous, fighters to kill archers and assasins and scouts to grab villages and support weakened positions. Every unit has their strong points - a good strategy uses your units strong points against the enemies weaknesses.
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Post by Higher Game »

In multiplayer, fighters are obviously very useful, but lose much of their long term value in the marathon-like campaigns. In the campaigns, I would definitely take an elven ranger over an elven hero, since rangers have great melee I use a lot against orc archers, but an elven captain definitely has its value (leading cannon-fodder fighters, of course!). In some of the latter maps I've been playing (Elensefar, Crossroads, Princess), fighters have been very valuable as cannon-fodder, since they're 4 gold cheaper than archers, and they fight reasonably well with leadership guidance.

Overall, I don't have a problem with the fighter/archer differences anymore. That's all.
Lathai
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Post by Lathai »

I'll take my elvish champion in a village on Dwarven Doors and watch him smack down every unit that tries to attack him.

Jolly fun!
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Post by bioman »

Higher Game wrote:Overall, I don't have a problem with the fighter/archer differences anymore. That's all.
That is great to hear. :D

But still, using fighters as cannon fodder works well when you have a Shaman or two to back them up (and slow down those big hitters).
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Post by Elvish_Pillager »

Lathai wrote:I'll take my elvish champion in a village on Dwarven Doors and watch him smack down every unit that tries to attack him.

Jolly fun!
I remember once when I did that. An Elvish Champion was killed by a series of three Trolls which all attacked him from the same hex. 8)
It's all fun and games until someone loses a lawsuit. Oh, and by the way, sending me private messages won't work. :/ If you must contact me, there's an e-mail address listed on the website in my profile.
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JW
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Post by JW »

Higher Game wrote: fighters have been very valuable as cannon-fodder, since they're 4 gold cheaper than archers
In 1.1.8 they're only 3g cheaper. 8)

-edit-

1.1.9! :shock:
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