Is there a point to non-archer elven units?

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Higher Game
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Is there a point to non-archer elven units?

Post by Higher Game »

Fighters seem like cannon fodder to me compared to the archers. They're only slightly tougher, and they are much easier to hit, making them actually weaker on the battlefield! Their ranged attack is nothing compared to what an archer does, and archers can eventually become stealthy rangers. I had 3 rangers by the end of the first stage of heir to the throne, and both of my fighters died.

The shaman heals very little, is very frail, and is borderline impossible to level. Their slow ability makes them good for defending storyline units (which usually only happens due to stupidity anyway), but this ends up resulting in their death 90% of the time.

The elvish scout is profoundly worthless. Don't even make me start about them.

I do know that elves are legendary archers, but for game balance reasons, why is the archer so powerful? It isn't fair to those who prefer a balanced (in theory, at least) force over a munchkin one.

Finally, it seems that all units get far too many moves for a hex based game, and village gold is almost inconsequential. Besides that, I like Wesnoth so far.
Higher Game
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Post by Higher Game »

I'm using the stable version, by the way.
scott
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Re: Is there a point to non-archer elven units?

Post by scott »

Higher Game wrote:Hello, I'm new. Can't you tell?
Hi, welcome to Wesnoth. Glad you enjoy it :)
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turin
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Re: Is there a point to non-archer elven units?

Post by turin »

Higher Game wrote:Fighters seem like cannon fodder to me compared to the archers. They're only slightly tougher, and they are much easier to hit, making them actually weaker on the battlefield! Their ranged attack is nothing compared to what an archer does, and archers can eventually become stealthy rangers. I had 3 rangers by the end of the first stage of heir to the throne, and both of my fighters died.
Yes, archers are good, but fighters are good for a different purpose. Not all levels take place in maps that are all forest, and you will find then that fighters can survive much better in non-forest terrain. I agree though that archers are better on the first level of HTTT.
Higher Game wrote:The shaman heals very little, is very frail, and is borderline impossible to level. Their slow ability makes them good for defending storyline units (which usually only happens due to stupidity anyway), but this ends up resulting in their death 90% of the time.
You've vastly underestimated the power of healing. Sure, he only heals 4 hp, but that's a lot (it can be the difference between life and death for a lot of units), and it heals every unit next to it. Also, you seem to be misusing slows; it is actually best for slowing an enemy unit so that you can attack it without being hurt as much.

Plus, when shamans level their heals gets much better. It is worth the trouble of advancing them.
Higher Game wrote:The elvish scout is profoundly worthless. Don't even make me start about them.
It isn't completely worthless, but I agree it is not as good.
Higher Game wrote:I do know that elves are legendary archers, but for game balance reasons, why is the archer so powerful? It isn't fair to those who prefer a balanced (in theory, at least) force over a munchkin one.
The first scenario of HttT inflates the value of archers, I would say. They're not really as good as you say, and the other elvish units aren't as bad as you say.
Higher Game wrote:Finally, it seems that all units get far too many moves for a hex based game,
An average of 5 is too many? Most other games I've played have at least that many... and the maps are bigger than most other games.
Higher Game wrote: and village gold is almost inconsequential.
Au contraire. Again, this seems to be the first scenario of HttT messing up your thinking. Gold is extremely important to most scenarios, but on flight scenarios like Elves Besieged it isn't so important.
Higher Game wrote:Besides that, I like Wesnoth so far.
Good. :)
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JW
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Post by JW »

^What scott said+

1) Stable is out of date in terms of balance
2) SP is not used to determine faction or unit balance
3) HTTT does not use the recruit list for the Rebel MP faction
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Post by Dragon Master »

before you say anything, try playing a single player game against the comp. as rebels on a normal map, you'll see the importance of the other units. This will also let you get a feel for the other factions. A tip to newbies: Don't complain about a factional imbalance unless you've had at least a month of experience, and unless you have a very compelling arguement, you'll still will be wrong :)
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podunk
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Post by podunk »

Well, lets see.

The most hit points any archer I've had was 56. You can level a fighter to Champion with as much as 71 hit points.

There are times when you have no choice but to fight at the wrong time of day on bad ground against the entirely wrong opponent. For instance, a level 2 archer with 42 hit points is dead when facing 2 level 2 orcs, or a royal guard. You need a tank for that. Some scenes have lots of enemy archers. When your archer shoots their archer - they shoot back. An elvish archer facing an orc archer or level 2 slayer at night is going to take a lot more damage than the orc, and it's stuck there waiting for their turn.

Of course, a level 3 Marshal with 60 some odd hit points can march in with his 10-4 sword attack and knock them out right then.

Elvish marksmen and sharpshooters are darn near as fragile as a mage. Nice to do a lot of damage quick - but you need a back up plan in case someone doesn't die quite as fast as you expected.

Elvish scouts level to elvish outriders with up to 56 hit points. These are very fast units that can reach weak areas in the line and hold them for one turn while you heal other units. They have both a fair sword and arrow attack. When you need villages and are facing level 2 wolf riders of various sorts they really come into their own. They come in very handy underground, especially in the scepter of fire where I always tend to lose formation. 1 outrider and a couple of silver mages can move from hot spot to hot spot providing reinforcements.

Shamans level to Shydes which surprisingly has a pretty good attack against undead and horsemen of various sorts. They are fast and they heal and cure. On the levels where gold is scarce and time is important you can heal units on the move instead of parking them in a village.

Or you can take the other path and level them to Sylphs (sp?) who do a lot of damage quick - especially to trolls and infantry type units.

I'm not a very good player, I'm sure some of the other folks can think of more.
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zookeeper
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Post by zookeeper »

I hate elvish scouts too. They always die, and are IMHO pretty worthless for anything but grabbing distant villages to boost your income (that's what I use them for, in campaigns anyway). As for fighters being worthless...well, they're fighters, not archers. You primarily use ranged attacks with archers and primarily melee attacks with fighters, and the melee of fighters is actually pretty good.

Shamans: I consider healing to be much more worthless in 1.0.2 than in 1.1.8, because in 1.0.2 every healer has an amount of hitpoints it can distribute to wounded units around it, which makes it effectively heal only a few units and also makes it effectively random which units it will heal (there are rules, but the player is only human). In 1.1.8 however, a healer will give the same number of hitpoints to every wounded adjacent unit - +4hp with shamans, +8 with druids and white magi, etc. And curing poison (druids and white magi) is occasionally very useful too. Leveling shamans is indeed a bit tricky, but with some planning you should be able to get some relatively easy kills for them (just try to lower and enemy's hitpoints so low that one hit from your shaman can kill it, then go hit it with the shaman while making sure that if the shaman misses both, you can still keep the shaman safe).

Anyway, I'd suggest giving 1.1.8 at least a try - there might be some rather severe performance problems still with it, but worth a try IMO.
Sombra
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Post by Sombra »

After reading the "how to play series" . It seems that "Bats" and "Footpads" aren´t usful at all. :(

Higher Game: Elven archers are very weak when the other sides attacks... In HTTT there will come the day where you have Cavalery and hard hitting mellee units. They will simply take your archers apart if there is no forest to hide in.

Elven archers fighting undeads... If you want we can play a MP game... You rebels, I am undead... Will be nice to see your archers in action :wink:
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Post by Elvish_Pillager »

I've reached the cave scenarios in the HttT campaign recruiting nothing but Elvish Scouts. Don't underestimate them too much.

In the first scenario I sometimes get one or two Scouts to grab villages and then help a little in the battle(s). In the second I sometimes get one to steal my ally's villages. Believe it or not, the Siege of Elensefar is awesome for using an only-scouts strategy, although it's probably necessary to have a few advanced units, including a high-level Konrad. (You also might want to switch strategies before fighting the Skeletons.) Scouts are nice in Northern Winter because they are your best unit for grabbing villages, except maybe Gryphons (and Gryphons are much costiler.)
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Thrawn
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Re: Is there a point to non-archer elven units?

Post by Thrawn »

Higher Game wrote: The shaman heals very little, is very frail, and is borderline impossible to level. Their slow ability makes them good for defending storyline units (which usually only happens due to stupidity anyway), but this ends up resulting in their death 90% of the time.
welcome to wesnoth and all...but IMO shamans are ridonkilously easy to level, maybe becasue I feed them kills, but I almost always have a enchanter by the end of the first scenario.

Cons:
really weak, in terms of HP and attacks.
not fast
Pros:
30% chance of being hit in forests--same as with archers
slow--this has already been mentioned, but really, slowing the trolls is wicked fun... :)
heal--already mentioned
Undetermined: ability to level them up
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JW
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Post by JW »

Sombra wrote:After reading the "how to play series" . It seems that "Bats" and "Footpads" aren´t usful at all. :(
The HTP series is out of date. It was written at the time of 1.1.2a - since then Footpads have gotten bonuses to 3 stats. They're pretty decent now. Also, I underestimate Bats, slightly, in the advice.
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Post by Flametrooper »

The best way to level shamans in HttT is to find a troll warrior, attack it with Delfador, and if you have good luck, the troll's about at 1-5 HP. (If you don't have good luck, i.e. he misses a strike or two, then weaken it the rest of the way with archers.) This enough for a shaman to finish it off. An Intelligent Shaman with no XP will be 2 points away from leveling after killing a level 3, a non-Intelligent one will be 8 points (1 level 1 kill) away.
Using these tactics, I beat the first scenario of HttT recruiting only shamans, and leveled 3 - 2 into Sorceresses and 1 into a Druid - plus Konrad. A sorceress has a decent cold attack, plus a better entangle, and can level all the way to Sylph, which flies and kicks ass. On the other branch, the Shyde is a very moblie curer and can even do some damage with throns or entangle as well.
:arrow: In summary, the Shaman is by far not a worthless unit.
server
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Post by server »

Flametrooper wrote:A sorceress has a decent cold attack, plus a better entangle, and can level all the way to Sylph, which flies and kicks ass. On the other branch, the Shyde is a very moblie curer and can even do some damage with throns or entangle as well.
Shyde is a flying unit too (they are the same "woodlandfloat" movement type). Both cannot move onto cave wall (obviously) or chasm/canyon.
Higher Game
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Post by Higher Game »

Shamans only get 2 attacks, though, with entangle. It's 4-2, and it's very common for both hits to miss. If they were 2-4, they would have a much higher chance of leveling, but their entangle attack would hit too much. Maybe they could be balanced by giving them 2-4, but requiring 2 hits of entangle for it to take effect? As it is now, even with an enemy at 2 hit points, they only kill it about half the time because of their inaccuracy. Taking along 2 shamans to kill a single enemy with 2-4 hit points is simply ridiculous. I take more fighters instead, who at least stand a chance of surviving.

Pillager, surely some of those scouts leveled up, right? And if so, how? They're incredibly weak, even in the forest.
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