How to play Rebels

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Velensk
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Post by Velensk » December 22nd, 2007, 7:47 pm

I'm inclined to agree with doc, also shamans can be killed in one turn by an ulf, and then easily protected to kill something else on the next turn.
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singalen
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Some ideas in wiki

Post by singalen » December 24th, 2007, 7:10 pm

I try to pull it up as much as I can...

Rebels vs Drakes

You are in not-too-good position:

* Drakes have good speed (can grab villages quickly) and have good HP;
* Which is worse, Saurian Skirmisher kills your only village-grabber, Scout, in 5 blows, while always has good defense and speed, so you'll have to retreat Scout and lose some gold;
* You don't have Cold attack which Drakes are vulnerable to;

At least half of enemy army will be Saurians. So recruit Mages, first one, and 1-2 later on, and pick Saurians out of their swamps.
Have Shaman to slow Clashers and Fighters.
Have Scouts to get villages.
And to exploit Drakes' lesser weakness, to Pierce, have a mix of Archers and Fighters. Fighters are cheap, do a good backfire, and one can level up to Captain.

In this matchup it's especially important to keep good amount of villages. If you lose them, you'll be overwhelmed by cheap Saurians.

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JW
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Re: Some ideas in wiki

Post by JW » December 24th, 2007, 8:39 pm

singalen wrote:I try to pull it up as much as I can...

Rebels vs Drakes

You are in not-too-good position:

* Drakes have good speed (can grab villages quickly) and have good HP;
* Which is worse, Saurian Skirmisher kills your only village-grabber, Scout, in 5 blows, while always has good defense and speed, so you'll have to retreat Scout and lose some gold;
* You don't have Cold attack which Drakes are vulnerable to;

At least half of enemy army will be Saurians. So recruit Mages, first one, and 1-2 later on, and pick Saurians out of their swamps.
Have Shaman to slow Clashers and Fighters.
Have Scouts to get villages.
And to exploit Drakes' lesser weakness, to Pierce, have a mix of Archers and Fighters. Fighters are cheap, do a good backfire, and one can level up to Captain.

In this matchup it's especially important to keep good amount of villages. If you lose them, you'll be overwhelmed by cheap Saurians.
I'm not so sure about this advice.....

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singalen
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Re: Some ideas in wiki

Post by singalen » December 24th, 2007, 9:21 pm

JW wrote:I'm not so sure about this advice.....
Actually, me too. But it's a point to start.
Which point makes you doubt? Mages? Scouts vs Skirmishers? Suggestions about Drakes' unit choice? Lack of stressing Archers?

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Post by Sorrow » December 24th, 2007, 10:32 pm

Mostly because thats not quite drakes play vs elves. Saurians are auxiliary/village grabbing, not main troops.
Elf fighters are better in every respect except for a couple types of terrain and will razzle dazzle saurians about 90% of the time.

Mages maybe make one if he has a lot of saurians, but more than one is just inviting death, they are useless vs drakes which is what a drake player will mostly have, and will just get skirmished easily by saurians if indeed he has quite a few.

Augurs might be used to get you off of forests, but fighters can wallop them better than mages, and your not risking a 20 gold unit on the front line.

Fighting drakes is more about ignoring their strong points than exploiting their weaknesses, as the only unit elf has that can exploit their weaknesses is the dexterous archer, and even that is just a potential 4 extra damage. Loyalists get a ton more due to taking advantage of ToD and having extra damage to begin with.
* Which is worse, Saurian Skirmisher kills your only village-grabber, Scout, in 5 blows, while always has good defense and speed, so you'll have to retreat Scout and lose some gold;
You don't usually take an enemy village with a scout then leave him there anyway.

Keeping villages is important, but you'll be overwhelmed with drakes not saurians.

I do like shamans though, its fun to slow drakes at night and overrun them with elves.
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Post by nebula955 » December 24th, 2007, 10:43 pm

and trees are great.

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Post by Velensk » December 24th, 2007, 10:52 pm

Not against drakes.
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Post by Doc Paterson » December 24th, 2007, 11:04 pm

This thread is becoming really messy, and there's quite a bit of bad advice floating around now.

JW, if you'd like me to delete some of these, just say the word.
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JW
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Post by JW » December 24th, 2007, 11:18 pm

Doc Paterson wrote:This thread is becoming really messy, and there's quite a bit of bad advice floating around now.

JW, if you'd like me to delete some of these, just say the word.
Yeah.........it would probably be a good idea, but I don't plan on working on this project again at least until 1.4 comes out, so when I get back to it I'll probably have you delete half the thread. :P Until then I guess it's okay.......

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Post by nebula955 » December 25th, 2007, 12:04 am

i thought you were talking about saurians. tree>mage in that case. and it's only BAD vs the burner so w/e

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Post by Samantha » December 25th, 2007, 8:14 am

I would be inclined to say that the trees are bad against *any* of the drakes, including the saurians. All of the drakes except for the clasher has ranged fire attack which the trees are extremely weak against and can not retaliate from. Plus, they are so slow that they can't keep up with drakes or saurians.

The only possible use for a tree is to attack saurians with it, But using it attack saurians is asking to get it killed off the next turn and trading a 19 gold unit that is slow as molasses for a lightning fast 15-16 gold unit is just bad!

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Post by Raemon » December 25th, 2007, 4:30 pm

I agree with Samantha. Every Drake resists Impact (and Fire, too, admittedly) so neither the Wose nor the Mage are much use against them at any time of day. Three of them are equipped with a Fire attack, and the Clasher has a Blade attack. Mages are far better against Saurians at night, since they actually have a chance of catching them (5/6 to 4) and hitting them.
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Post by Xandria » December 26th, 2007, 12:54 pm

Hm. The tree dies horribly against drakes. Drake Flare as leader, + Burner/Fighter, and the tree's firewood or toast.

The tree does a good job against undead. It isn't half bad against Loyalists, who have to bring in a mage to combat it effectively.
But against other factions than those two, its use is rather limited.
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Post by Clonkinator » December 26th, 2007, 1:38 pm

If the enemy plays orcs and brings a lot of goblins into battle (which is a rather bad idea) a wose may also be a good idea.

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Re:

Post by Jetrel » May 6th, 2009, 11:25 pm

For strategy on a normal wesnoth map, with about 100 gold or so, you want one shaman. The healing is a minor bonus, the real use of is to castrate some opposing dangerous unit, and let you kill it with the rest of your team; or ignore the threat it would usually pose and do something else that would normally be too dangerous.

In a game with only 5-8 units, taking out your opponents "expensive special unit", or just one of their big melee bruisers, like this, can be the thing that turns the table in your favor.
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bert1 wrote: Which MP map were you thinking of in which this situation is likely to occur?
I'd guess he's talking about campaigns, or AOH or something; probably not default MP.

In default, you don't have clumps of forest that would accomodate a "team" of multiple shamans and a druid. You practically never see 3+ shamans on a given front (considering that many 1v1s require management of eastern, western and to lesser extents central fronts). If this was the case, you'd either be talking about a 30+ turn game, or a situation in which the shamans would have inadequate support (there wouldn't be enough gold for shield units without crippling your other fronts) and would be quickly killed or bypassed entirely.
Yeah, I'm talking about large-scale games with more than 15-20 units per side. In large scale games, strategies change significantly, because certain things like the above aren't possible with only a few units. Although I enjoy playing regular "~100 gold" wesnoth, I also really like playing wesnoth with more (300-400) gold in play; it takes longer, but I find it more strategic and interesting.

For a simple example, in a game with 2 guardsmen and one ulf in play, it's much harder (often impossible) to "kill something with the ulf and then completely block the opponent from attacking your ulf, via placement of the guardsmen". If you have a good choke, maybe, if you're out in the open or your opponent has a skirmisher, no chance. If you have six guardsmen, you can perfectly surround the ulf. No skirmisher can touch you, and it's a whole different ballgame.
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