0.9.2 Proposed Balancing Changes

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Dave
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Re: 0.9.2 Proposed Balancing Changes

Post by Dave »

Noy wrote: That makes 19, give me one day and I'll get 30, because there are people I know that want a revision but I wouldn't want to say because I haven't asked them If I could post their name, or I know they wouldn't mind.
Gee...how many people are there who actually play mp regularly? :)

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Re: 0.9.2 Proposed Balancing Changes

Post by Noy »

Dave wrote:
Noy wrote: That makes 19, give me one day and I'll get 30, because there are people I know that want a revision but I wouldn't want to say because I haven't asked them If I could post their name, or I know they wouldn't mind.
Gee...how many people are there who actually play mp regularly? :)

David
I think you can count at very least on a core group that are on at least once every week of 25 or so. people come and go. Of the list I posted I think 4 to 5 I haven't seen in the past month. Lately however there has been a huge spike in the total number of players playing. Around 1400 to 2100 gmt the lobby is full of players.
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Post by claus »

Noy wrote:Firstly about the walking corpse

Our contention about the WC is that when compared to the only other Lvl0 unit, the Goblin spearman, its a definate bargain.

It has similar stats to the Goblin, with the exception of poorer resistances and slightly less powerful attack (5-2 vs 4-3 for the goblin with the goblin having a 4-1 ranged as well) so at very least I would say that it "could" be 2 gold less. But the WC also has plague is a very powerful ability that gives you free units, units that do not have to pay upkeep. Many players just use walking corpses as blockers even without zoc, as a staple unit.
As far as I know the Goblin Spearman has two traits and the walking corpse has no traits, which is a big advantage for the Goblin.
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Post by Tippsey »

Hmmm the list seems good, I even must go with the ulf revert back. An ulf which has a good chance of dieing to anything but mages and dark adepts is darn useless.
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Re: 0.9.2 Proposed Balancing Changes

Post by Jetrel »

Noy wrote: Orcish Archer- New 5-2 alternate ranged fire attack +2 gold (12 ->14 gold)
Troll - remove intelligent trait, +1 XP to whelp (32->33XP)
Dwarven Thunderer - -1 gold (18 ->17gold)
Fencer - -1 gold (18 -> 17g gold)
Ranger 7-3 melee (7-4 ->7-3 melee)
Walking corpse - +2 gold (5 -> 7 gold)
Gryphon rider - -1 gold (25 -> 24 gold)
Sounds good.

Noy wrote:Ulf - reversion to 0.8.11
fine for now, but I'd like to investigate some much more invasive changes later.
Noy wrote:Skirmisher- -1 movement (7 -> 6MP ) and +1 gold (14 -> 15 gold)
I should warn you that the saurian movetype has had some major changes for this release.
These changes may not be bad, but the saurians might end up coming out on the weak side of things.
Noy wrote:Glider - remove marksmanship
No.
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Post by scott »

I always thought the goblin spearman was strong for a L0 unit, but what do I know?
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Post by Ankka »

scott wrote:I always thought the goblin spearman was strong for a L0 unit, but what do I know?
I have always thouhgt of it as a really weak vs the price-unit. 8 gold and 4-3... not great at all. 4 moves isn't much.

I support making it cheaper, but IMvHO the corpse should stay. No one has complained of it anywhere, I think.

To help Noy here: I SUPPORT CHANGING THE ULF BACK TO WHAT IT WAS IN 0.8.11

EP's problem here is that he can't believe he's wrong.
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Re: 0.9.2 Proposed Balancing Changes

Post by Disto »

* unit balancing and modifications:
* reduced Dwarvish Fighter cost from 17 to 16
* changed Lieutenant attack from 6-3 to 9-3
* changed Soulless attack from 7-2 to 7-3
* changed Soulless attack from plague to plague(Walking Corpse)
* changed Skeletal Dragon resistances (only used in Eastern Invasion:
scenario Drowned Plains)
* slow now affects units with 2 or more attacks (not just 1 remaining)
* slow now works with berserk and is persistent across berserk rounds
* Elvish Shaman can no longer level up to Elvish Sorceress
* changed Elvish Lord and Elvish High Lord's ranged attack from fire to cold
* Goblin Knight -> Direwolf Rider upgrade reduced to 65 XP
* tweaked Watch Tower, Pirate Galleon and Transport Galleon and removed
their multihex attacks (only used as real units in Son of the Black Eye)
* Added flaming arrow to orcish archer line as a new attack
This is lifted entirely from the changelog, i believe they cover some of your requests.
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Post by Dreadwing »

"Skirmisher- -1 movement (7 -> 6MP ) and +1 gold (14 -> 15 gold)"
I think just -1movement is enough, +1gold too is bad idea.Either +1gold or -1movement not both is better...

* Elvish Shaman can no longer level up to Elvish Sorceress"
So is it seperate unit now or what??guess its off topic.
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Post by Disto »

The Enchantress etc will be becoming part of the high elves.
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Re: 0.9.2 Proposed Balancing Changes

Post by Noy »

Disto wrote: This is lifted entirely from the changelog, i believe they cover some of your requests.
Distro, I think there is a slight misconception. We have been put in charge of these changes. What we have posted are not requests; these are firm changes that we will make (and have been doing), unless they have been legitimately disputed. So that is why discussion here is vital. The Walking corpse/goblin debate is a good one, and has brought up several things to my mind.
* Elvish Shaman can no longer level up to Elvish Sorceress"
So is it seperate unit now or what??guess its off topic.
Umm we'll have to see about that. Most certainly there will not be a high elves faction created before 1.0 comes out.... so this might have to be reverted.
Last edited by Noy on May 30th, 2005, 1:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 0.9.2 Proposed Balancing Changes

Post by Noy »

jetryl wrote:fine for now, but I'd like to investigate some much more invasive changes later.
Maybe, we can talk about it, but as I've said before, and it is now clearly stated in various emails, balancing considerations from gameplay take precedence. We are fully ammendable towards changes that will give the game a better feel; but NOT if they have a detrimental effect on gameplay.

jetryl wrote: I should warn you that the saurian movetype has had some major changes for this release.
These changes may not be bad, but the saurians might end up coming out on the weak side of things.
Thats the point. In the past two months the most unbalanced strategy is MP has been the saurian rush which for many races is almost impossible to counter. Ask Soliton, Elvish Prestley and Doc patterson, we've tried several dozen test matches on different maps to counter the strategy and only one was successful (northerners with their cheap units which can flood a map, if they start first). Thats it. Out of all the changes proposed its likely the most needed. Incidently, The principle worry for lowering the cost of the fencer was that this strategy will then become viable for the Loyalists, so we did not decrease the cost more than one gold.


jetryl wrote:
Noy wrote:Glider - remove marksmanship
No.
You're going to have to come up with a better answer than "no" to convince us Jetryl.
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Post by Disto »

:roll: Noy all your power are through the devs who have access to CVS so basically they are requests :roll: , if the devs felt they did not want these changes they are well within their rights to not impliment them. Nothing here is definite and players have small powers over the devs, they will do what they feel is right and not what people think.
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Post by turin »

Disto wrote::roll: Noy all your power are through the devs who have access to CVS so basically they are requests :roll: , if the devs felt they did not want these changes they are well within their rights to not impliment them. Nothing here is definite and players have small powers over the devs, they will do what they feel is right and not what people think.
No, DK has CVS access, and I'm not sure but I suspect Noy has it too. They are directly committing these changes.

In short, Noy and DK are now the official MP developers.
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Post by Doc Paterson »

Disto wrote::roll: Noy all your power are through the devs who have access to CVS so basically they are requests :roll: , if the devs felt they did not want these changes they are well within their rights to not impliment them. Nothing here is definite and players have small powers over the devs, they will do what they feel is right and not what people think.
Are you saying they're on the Jedi Council, but are not granted the rank of Master? :twisted:

Hehe. I love the changes guys; great work. The only thing that really gave me some pause was the Corpse/Spearman thing....even that though is in my opinion more good than bad. Though I very rarely use it, I know there are situations when the spearman can be very useful (as it is, at 8G, mainly because of traits and pierce), but again, I'm not too worried. 8)


(a really funny thing happened in a game I just played on the MP server....Someone charged my spearman on grassland with their 33-remaining-HP horseman, and it went like this: horseman: MISS spearman: 11 horseman: MISS spearman: 11, 11 (kill) ....that was a good laugh. ) :D
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