New amazon faction

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Maeglin Dubh
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Post by Maeglin Dubh »

But, those are all (as far as I can tell) Nordic units, and I didn't think the Amazons were being based on Norse mythos or military...
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Post by pigandforks »

those amazons are so much cooler. They look like the amazons we all know, who cares about historical blah blah... Look at them they are so much better looking.
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Post by zookeeper »

Maeglin Dubh wrote:But, those are all (as far as I can tell) Nordic units, and I didn't think the Amazons were being based on Norse mythos or military...
If I designed the "amazon" faction and included valkyries and whatnot, I definitely wouldn't call the faction "amazons". Just pointing out that I find historically accurate -or perhaps even just logical- factions boring, and I think it's better to throw in cooler creatures, especially since the world is a fantasy world which allows that sort of thing. And I think it's in most cases necessary to mix different influences together, since a "pure" faction (consisting only of units of a single race, for instance, or a single historical faction) will IMHO most likely not be very interesting.

Creating historically realistic/accurate/logical factions reminds me of a SNES game, Terranigma, which was a typical action RPG of the time but which actually had an Earth-based world map and places like "Spain" and "S. Pole". It was just the stupidest thing ever and that sort of thing only, IMHO, destroys every bit of immersion there might be. If it's a fantasy world and you throw in something that the player recognizes only as something copied from the real world, it's bad. IMO.
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Post by Cuyo Quiz »

Well, all the information on amazons are mostly mythos anyway, but i think that for something inside the "historical spree", going with easily recognizable fantasy is too much.

And if experience has made us a little wiser, Temuchin will knock out a new name which will be oscurely related and yet fitting for the faction. I recomend looking at Wikipedia, quite some options about the meaning of the name amazon.
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Post by turin »

zookeeper wrote:
Maeglin Dubh wrote:But, those are all (as far as I can tell) Nordic units, and I didn't think the Amazons were being based on Norse mythos or military...
If I designed the "amazon" faction and included valkyries and whatnot, I definitely wouldn't call the faction "amazons".
But - isn't that what you were just proposing? :?
zookeeper wrote:Just pointing out that I find historically accurate -or perhaps even just logical- factions boring, and I think it's better to throw in cooler creatures, especially since the world is a fantasy world which allows that sort of thing.
BACK, FIEND! :roll:

Fantasy worlds don't allow that, IMO.
zookeeper wrote:And I think it's in most cases necessary to mix different influences together, since a "pure" faction (consisting only of units of a single race, for instance, or a single historical faction) will IMHO most likely not be very interesting.
True. That's why you shouldn't try to make a completely amazon faction, though, not a reason to add a bunch of random pegasi for the amazons to ride, and give some of the amazons wings and call them valkyries.

For example, it might be a good idea to have the Amazons allied with the Naga or Mermen. (Although that has been done one too many times already - it would be best if you picked something else to ally the amazons with.)
zookeeper wrote:Creating historically realistic/accurate/logical factions reminds me of a SNES game, Terranigma, which was a typical action RPG of the time but which actually had an Earth-based world map and places like "Spain" and "S. Pole". It was just the stupidest thing ever and that sort of thing only, IMHO, destroys every bit of immersion there might be. If it's a fantasy world and you throw in something that the player recognizes only as something copied from the real world, it's bad. IMO.
SEE: Imperial Era.

Just because a faction is based on history doesn't mean it has to have historical names. And doesn't mean it can't have any fantasy at all (see the Salik and Ifrit units in the kedari faction), just that it keeps somewhat accurately to the source material.
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Post by Temuchin Khan »

pigandforks wrote:who cares about historical blah blah....
That hurts. I would appreciate it if you wouldn't insult people who find history to be fascinating and intriguing and who want to see whether it can be accurately reflected in our game so that everyone can see how cool it is.

If you want to use these beautiful Nordic-looking units, make a Valkyrie faction!

Hmmm.... Amazons vs. Valkyries.
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Post by Temuchin Khan »

Ditto the above comments asking that those who do not like history respect those who do see its romance.
zookeeper wrote:basic archer, basic spearfighter, shieldmaiden or whatever, pegasus rider and valkyrie. The first three are crap,
And illogical. They have furs in their boots and bikinis, but leave the rest of their bodies naked to the elements? They would freeze to death in those clothes!
zookeeper wrote:the pegasus rider and valkyrie are stylistically quite close to what I have in mind.
But my concerns about their inability to survive the winter remain.

On the whole, though, the art is well done, as I said in the reply to pigandforks.

Nonetheless, Noyga's original idea was to make a faction based on the Greek myth, not the Nordic. If you invade with Nordic units, you are hijacking his thread. Or at least threatening to. For that reason too, it matters whether we use Greek or Nordic units for the Amazon faction.

Again, when people hear "Amazon" they know that the word comes from Greek myth, not Nordic, and expect Greek Amazons. So the issue of truth in advertising comes in, too.
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Post by Dave »

Personally I like zookeeper's interpretation. I'm not sure about the pegasus-rider, but the others are cool.

I do like the idea of having Valkyrie. It's completely in-line with the original vision of how Wesnoth sides and units work.

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Post by Noyga »

Well i think there would be noticable differences between the amazons and the valkyries :
- The valkyries would be more melee oriented : unlike the amazons (except a praticular unit), they would be heavily armored and uses some impact weapons like hammer (that the amazons wouldn't use) while amazons would use a lot of ranged weapons like javelins and bows that the valkyries would rarely use.
- The valkyries could have some mages that casts some lighting bolts, while the amazons would be purely warriors

Valkyries would be strong where amazons would be weak (in particular versus undeads) and vice-versa, so it could be a great alliance, perhaps too different ?

I initally planned to give a torch to a level 1 amazon units to fight the undead, but if there are valkyries in the faction

Maybe i'll do 2 factions :
- the amazons i initially planned (with torchs)
- a amazons (without torch)+valkyries
There would be 2 kinds of valkyries :
- fighters : heavily armored, with a hammer and a sword (or an axe)
- spellcaster : that casts lightning

btw i don't know that much about valkyries, maybe it is incorrect.

But first i shall make some graphics for my amazons...
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Post by Temuchin Khan »

Noyga wrote: There would be 2 kinds of valkyries :
- fighters : heavily armored, with a hammer and a sword (or an axe)
- spellcaster : that casts lightning

btw i don't know that much about valkyries, maybe it is incorrect.
You are correct in saying that there are many differences between Amazons and Valkyries, not least among them that Valkyries would focus on melee weapons and Amazons on ranged weapons. However, I think swords were the weapon most often associated with the Valkyries.

And of course, the original Valkyries of Norse myth were not even human. They were Odin's "choosers of the slain", whom he sent forth to all the world's battlefields to gather the souls of all those who died in battle into the halls of Valhalla, there to await the final confrontation with the giants and the doom of the gods.
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Post by Darth Fool »

I think that an amazon valkyrie alliance is a great idea. Remember that for most eras, it is considered the standard to not have all units in a faction of the same race, but rather to have alliances between two or more races. And, since WINHM*, mixing a little norse and greek mythos is a perfectly fine practice. In fact, I would say that mixing is a good idea unless you are doing a total conversion to a particular mythos for several different factions.

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Maeglin Dubh
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Post by Maeglin Dubh »

As I understood it, the Amazon faction was to be added to the Imperial Era, which (last time I checked) is a historically based era. Mythological Valkyries riding pegasi don't really belong in a faction alongside historical steppe raiders, which is what I think this was being based on...
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Post by Cuyo Quiz »

I think the farter that fantasy has gone in the Imperial Era would be the Genies, and there is no commonly known gigantic divine interpretation on them IIRC.
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Temuchin Khan
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Post by Temuchin Khan »

Maeglin Dubh wrote:As I understood it, the Amazon faction was to be added to the Imperial Era, which (last time I checked) is a historically based era. Mythological Valkyries riding pegasi don't really belong in a faction alongside historical steppe raiders, which is what I think this was being based on...
It was considered, but it doesn't look like it will happen. Rather, it seems that the Amazons would be in their own separate era.

And personally, I would like to see Amazons and Valkyries go head-to-head, not ally.
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Post by romnajin »

From Diablo 2? Sorry if it was posted, don't have time for 6 pages of reading.
Sorry for the meaningless post
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