Internet Meme Era v 0.0.8

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lindsay40k
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Re: Internet Meme Era v 0.0.7

Post by lindsay40k » September 29th, 2010, 10:55 pm

New Battle Bot art!
Spoiler:
Posted on the art thread, where I'm asking for a little guidance.

Is there any chance we could have an updated unit tree for the Robots, showing how they stand currently? If we could also work out a tree of what we were discussing re Rampagers and Boats, that'd be very useful.


I've had an idea for a Cowboy unit that might be interesting and characterful for this era of stereotypes. A 'Madam' unit. Always female, has the following attacks:

- Knee. Impact attack, fairly weak; if target is Male, triple damage plus Slows.

- Slap. Impact attack, fairly weak; if target is Female, double damage; if target is Male, Charms. Upgrades to more powerful Handbag.

Also, has some sort of 'cheerleader' effect; friendly Male units in contact with her get some sort of fixed damage bonus, representing them trying to impress her.


PS regarding permissions to use my unit graphics: as far as I'm concerned, they are on the creative commons and anybody is free to make any non-profit use of them as they see fit, provided I get acknowledged as creator.
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Re: Internet Meme Era v 0.0.7

Post by Drakefriend » September 30th, 2010, 2:17 pm

Maybe more the Warmachine then the Battlebot?
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Re: Internet Meme Era v 0.0.7

Post by Dixie » September 30th, 2010, 2:49 pm

So, about your sprite, I answered on the other thread, as you saw :)

I finished redoing the unit trees. You will notice there is a lot of free space, but it's to show sprite advancement. I was not sure wether or not to include the bots you had already done, but since you seemed inclined on redoing them, I didn't. (I guess I could've included the Scavenger line though. Oh well, next time, sorry :/). Names are not all final, btw (some I like more than others). For instance, I don't like the bots' "Dicer", the Cowboys' "Milician", and a lot of the Triffids.

About the 'bot line-up, btw: it isn't a very disturbing unit balance-wise, but I'm not utterly convinced by the Submarine, so if you aren't either, it may get scrapped. Drakefriend was also talking about the Brainjar being RIPLIB, so maybe we could be doing an alternate Lv3 for the Inventor: Mad Prof could be final (find something special to give him? Maybe a bit more offensive, or have some kind of explosive flagon?), and have a Cyborg that would be a transition between dwarves and the Mechanical leaders...

So next up: I will likely be doing the excel sheet this weekend (maybe not your whole formula yet, since it's not final, or so you say, fog_of_gold, but just the basic layout to be able to compare easily, like I had done previously). I eventually want to sprite a bit too to finish up the Ninjas once and for all. And huh... balance a bit, maybe, and submit the whole thing to you sometime next week if all goes well.

Edit: The Madam. The idea is funny, but I'm not sure it'd make a very good unit, especially KISS-wise :P Plus, we don't really have a lot of females atm ;) I suppose there could be a bunch eventually, given the artwork, but it's low, low priority for the time being.
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Re: Internet Meme Era v 0.0.7

Post by Drakefriend » September 30th, 2010, 2:53 pm

Er, you have posted the "Brotherhood of the Coast" tree again in the Cowboy section.
After far too long an absence, I have returned.
According to the quiz 100% Silver Mage (85% Archmage, 75% Shyde, 67% Flameheart and Ancient Wose,58% Assassin, Troll Warrior and Berserker). And my top score is exactly how I see myself.

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Re: Internet Meme Era v 0.0.7

Post by Dixie » October 1st, 2010, 11:05 pm

Sorry for the error. It is fixed now. I also added some units :)
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Re: Internet Meme Era v 0.0.7

Post by lindsay40k » October 3rd, 2010, 12:40 pm

With regards to the complaints my regular opponents have about the Robots, perhaps allowing the 'infantry' to occupy Mountain tiles for high Defence is a bit out of character? Traditionally, tracked vehicles have struggled with such terrain. Since the Probe, Mechanician and Scavenger lines can all do a fine job of mountaineering, I think giving tracked units (everything else) similar limitations to cavalry would be balanced and characterful.

Also, since we have two aquatic units - the Tank and Probe - which seem to do pretty well in a sea battle, I think we can afford to make the tracked units extremely slow and vulnerable when in water. They look rusty, they're powered by a boiler... fording a river should be a nightmare for them.



Query - If I install Wesnoth 1.9.1, will I be able to add IME?
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Re: Internet Meme Era v 0.0.7

Post by Dixie » October 4th, 2010, 1:40 am

As far as I know, yes, you could use it with 1.9.1. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to really try it myself since I encounter a weird crash when attempting to enter local multiplayer on 1.9.1...

Your suggestion all look pretty valid otherwise, I will probably implement it. I would possibly leave the Scavvies with somewhat okay water capabilities, though. Also, it wouldn't really matter overall, I think, but I would leave the Keeper/Sentinel with mountain movement, since they travel by tunnel-digging.

I could do another release, but I want to finish the stat-comparison excel sheet and try to do a bit of balancing, especially around the triffids, before. Should finish this sometime this week :)

Edit:
Doing the excel sheets, I noticed that the Rampager (you know, the tank level up with the pile driver and the berserk attack) had the tank movetype. Which basically means pretty good water mobility. I was wondering if that was really something we wished, and I was about to set it back to the default robot movetype, but I hesitated and thought I'd ask about your opinions on the matter. Also: for or against the submarine?
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Re: Internet Meme Era v 0.0.7

Post by Dixie » October 4th, 2010, 3:00 am

I will consider this is worth a double-post:

A new version of Internet meme Era (0.0.8) is now available... for BfW 1.9!

So yeah, I finished the excel sheet tonigh, tweaked some stats, made a last error-check, wired in the latest sprites, and sent the whole thing to the 1.9 add-ons server. As usual, a zip is still available in the first post. I've also left the last release there, for you 1.8 people. And I updated the unit trees. A lot of stuff as been moved around in this version, and except for some details we still have to discuss, I think the general design is mostly there.

Enjoy, people! It is thanks to your help en encouragements that this version can finally be available! :)

Points we might yet have to discuss about the design:
- Opinions about the new units?
- Change the Rampager's movetype from Tank to Robot? (ie. remove it's water mobility)
- Remove the submarine?
- Add a non-RIPLIB alternative to the Inventor (lv2 dwarven leader for the bots), and make the Mad Prof a cyborg?
- Change the Wagon1Caravan's role, from scout to support?
- Anything else that crosses your minds?
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Re: Internet Meme Era v 0.0.8

Post by lindsay40k » October 4th, 2010, 2:04 pm

The Rampager is basically a cross between a Steam Roller and Combine Harvester, so it seems logical to make its movetype non-aquatic. However, an aquatic unit that can become immobile in water is a serious RIPLIB concern. Were we not discussing moving it to the Battle Bot tree? I'd like to see it made into a separate line... 9 basic units does not feel massively excessive, and if we give it dreadful Defences it won't be that overpowered.

I like the Sub. It's a unit that'll see limited use, but I can't wait to make a sprite of a robot's head acting as a periscope. Only point is, it's going to be even more water-centric than the Ironclad line; I'd like to give it some grabbing claws, for a capable melee attack, and Torpedos, that should work as a Ranged attack only capable of targeting foes in a Water or Swamp (will this be possible?). Maybe an Artillery missile launch, too (to retain the Tank/Ironclad's capability). The grabby claws give it a means of moving on land - which will be important if it is swift and with good Defence in Deep Water, capable in Shallow Water, and absolutely rubbish on any kind of land.

I've got thoughts regarding the Sentinel (which I agree is worthy of an exception to the 'no mountaineering' rule for robots). I'll see how they play in the new update before going into detail.
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Re: Internet Meme Era v 0.0.8

Post by Dixie » October 4th, 2010, 2:23 pm

Rampager - At this point, i guess I could move him towards the battle bot line. And sure, it feels RIPLIB in the Tank family, but it's not like it's the only alternative: if you have a Tank leveling up in water, don't make him a Rampager, by all means!

Submarine - It already has it's torpedo attack, which will attack anything in any kind of water or swamp with 90% CTH, in water/swamp keeps and castles with 50% CTH, and anything else with 0% CTH (could possibly be changed to 10%, I guess). I also suppose we could give him some weak-ish melee attack, either some claws or maybe keep the charge-bumb thing from the Iron Clad. I would object giving him the artillery, though, it feels a bit unnatural for an underwater unit, and its ranged torpedos are already pretty powerful as it is. It can also submerge even in shallow water and swamp, but maybe that should be changed, I dunno. (MP maps seldom have much deep water, you know). It also looses Steadfast.
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Re: Internet Meme Era v 0.0.8

Post by lindsay40k » October 4th, 2010, 2:55 pm

Indeed, if your Tank is swimming, then it makes sense to level up into an Ironclad; but, if you're trying to level up into a Rampager, and you're crossing water and get attacked and end up levelling up, you've got a choice of either making the unit immobile or into a water specialist that might be useless in the map as a whole. Unfortunately, this also raises the issue of the Holder line's water mobility. I'm getting more drawn to the idea of a dedicated lv1 Ironclad, and a landlocked (or only slightly amphibious) Tank that develops along Dozer, Howitzer and Rampager lines...

OK, let's keep the Sub with just a Torpedo for ranged and look into the claw attack (blade?). The point I have in mind with that is that it gives it some means of moving across land - even if it levels up in water, that's not to say that it might not need to relocate, mudskipper-style
Spoiler:
to another body of water. The Black Boat from Advance Wars DS
Spoiler:
gave me the idea for giving it 'arms'; this'd also tie in with the Scavenger/Forager design, too!
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Re: Internet Meme Era v 0.0.8

Post by Dixie » October 4th, 2010, 4:35 pm

Well, while I'll agree it could make sense to have a Lv1 boat-bot, the bots actually have 8 recruitable units, which is the most any mainline faction has. (I -guess- we could still crank it up to 9, though). If we want to not go over 8 (which is already kinda plenty), options could be to either put the Sentinel back with the tanks, or merge two other lines, somehow (I don't really see which ones, though). It is also not much my concern, but you, as the guy who's making the art, should be aware that the bots is by far the faction with the most units. Do you really want to add two more? (Although I'll agree that when you've got a first level, doing derivatives of it for later level is not as much work as doing one from scratch entirely. Still gotta do it, though.)

About the arms, I kinda agree they could get them, even the ironclad could, it would replace the charging melee attack. Will note it down and do the change sometime this week.

I should also mention that I did not make the average bot with no mobility at all in water: I made their movecost 4 (which means that at any time, they can only move one hex of water), with very poor defense. They can also still access deep water and have submerge (although they're not likely to use it much). Anyway, thematically, I think the Rampager kinda fits with the Tanks, what with the bulldozer on later levels...
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Re: Internet Meme Era v 0.0.8

Post by lindsay40k » October 4th, 2010, 6:38 pm

Bug report on 1.9.1 IME: when stuff levels up, the defences go crazy. Almost all defences are listed as 0% on the unit data, but count as 100% in game. Oddly, it doesn't affect leaders that start at lv2.

The number of units is not a worry for me as an artist, I'm happy to produce as many unit graphics as is needed to make an interesting and balanced faction.

Also: I'd like to suggest making the Sub's torpedo attack simply gain Marksman, for the sake of KISS, and only able to target units in Water or Marsh tiles. When it gets the 'claw' attacks (lobster /mudskipper design comes to mind, here), it won't be left defenceless.

Furthermore, almost faction-wide Submerge still feels off. In Default, it's only really two units in the Undead that you see pulling this, every other similar ability requires levelling up. I think that leaving Submerge to the Scavenger line and the Sub - ie, the units that have a 'watertight' look to their design - will make for a fine naval capability, especially when we have Ironclads and Drones in there as well. Allowing those units to 'escort' a squad of Submerged infantry threatens to make a faction with access to Teleport overpowered IMO. I think giving the tracked 'infantry' the ability to slowly traverse shallow water is enough, besides which when we have smoke 'halos' around all the smokestacks it's going to look extremely odd when they fully submerge without extinguishing their furnaces.

Hmm. If I'm going to make the Submarine a crustacean-looking thing, and it's a sealed hull type contraption, why don't we make it an offshoot of the Forager? It could gain a pair of lv2 units - the Sub, and a Fiddler (mech crab on steroids)? It could incorporate the 'lightbulb' as an angler fish kind of gimmick. And it would keep Submerge within one unit tree, as well.

Finally, putting the Sentinel back in the Tank line would resolve most balance issues arising from a Lv1 with Teleport, and make the Interrupt confined to a single line (which feels more KISS), but would perhaps raise some RIPLIB issues as it would lose the Mortar on levelling.
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Re: Internet Meme Era v 0.0.8

Post by Dixie » October 4th, 2010, 9:49 pm

Hmm... Yeah, so I think I will do this:

- Put back the Keeper/Sentinel with the Tanks;
- Make the boat bot a separate line;
- Remove deep water access and submerge from the average bot;
- I would likely leave the sub with the boats, though. I think it fits kinda more, and I'm not sure expanding the scavengers more is really something we want. They [the subs] could start at level 2 instead of 3, though.

However, separating the boats from the tanks would likely have the following consequences:
- I would likely remove that great water mobility from the tanks, since it would no longer be needed;
- I would likely remove Artillery from the boats, as it's a great advantage and I don't want it to become too widespread. This, in turn, could lead to balance problem against pirates and their ships, which have an artillery attack dealing double damage on machines. With fire artillery to retaliate, it kinda evened out, but without... To be meditated.

I will also try to look into that defense bug on 1.9.1, but I'm a bit clueless. I'll see if I can reproduce it under 1.9.0, as 1.9.1 won't let me enter local multiplayer...
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Re: Internet Meme Era v 0.0.8

Post by lindsay40k » October 5th, 2010, 11:10 am

Yes, Tanks should definitely lose most of their aquatic ability. Though I would say they that in Shallow Water and Swamps, they should be better then the other bots, say, on a par with a human; they have a wide tread that it well-suited to river fording. Still no Deep Water movement, though.

I think that as the Tank's initial Mortar is quite modest, a faction lacking any other kind of Marksman, Magical or Area attack in their lv1 (or 0) units having two unit lines with an Artillery strike - one of them a water specialist - is not a massive balance concern. (The Flame Spitter, equivalent to a Fire Mage, is competing for level ups with the extremely useful Polluter, as well.) Perhaps if the lv1 Steamboat only has a Ram attack and an Airgun, and the lv2 Ironclad gains an Artillery attack that is improved when it becomes a lv3 Battleship?

If the Sub line starts at lv2, I'm very tempted to branch lv3 into a Lobster and a Nautillus. Maybe give the Lobster more land mobility, say, on a par with a Merman, whereas all the other boat units are single tile crawlers on land.
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