Descendants of the Dragon - 2.1 Released

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bonehead11
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Re: Descendants of the dragon

Post by bonehead11 »

I think Ill put out the peseant unit,but that ashigaru idea is really good.

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mnewton1
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Re: Descendants of the dragon

Post by mnewton1 »

Before I code any more units, do you want this for 1.4 or 1.5?
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mnewton1
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Re: Descendants of the dragon

Post by mnewton1 »

Ok thanks for the answer. I was think that instead of having a glavier it should be a unit with a Naginata. or since you have already made the unit have the Ashigaru level up into the glavier then into the Naginata. I would be very simple to edit the glavier art to make a unit with the naginata. just this the blade to look like this: Image

I could do it if you want
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Skizzaltix
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Re: Descendants of the dragon

Post by Skizzaltix »

I'd go with the hoe, if I were you--The Japanese have never been big on cows, and as such have never been big on hay, and as such there is no such thing as a Japanese pitchfork ;)
Also, I fail to see the connection between a ninja and a geisha... What if you were to have call them something along the lines of Genin->Chuunin->Juunin? (I believe that was the progression in most ninja clans)
You might also be able to somehow include the idea of a Nukenin (A ninja cast out of their clan for treachery)--Possibly an alternate, dead-end second level advancement:
Genin->Chuunin->Juunin
.............Nukenin
In fact, you could probably do something similar with the Samurai line, say:
Shugyousha->Samurai->Daimyou
.......................Rounin->Kensei
Maybe the Samurai line would have more health, and leadership once it hits level three, and the Rounin line would be more badass with his swords.
And to avoid violating RIPLIB, you could split the mounted line off entirely:
Kishu->Kishi
(Sorry--Can't think of a third Japanese word for "horseman". Though, it occurs to me, you could have the Kishu be another option for the Shugyousha's level two advancement--But that results in three level twos from one level one, which might not be a great idea...)

On a historical note, I don't think the Japanese or the Chinese ever used crossbows--They had firearms much earlier than Western nations, and firearms fill pretty much the same niche as crossbows, but are much more effective :hmm:

(Edit: Wesnoth forums are not whitespace-friendly)

bonehead11
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Re: Descendants of the dragon

Post by bonehead11 »

mnewton1 wrote:Ok thanks for the answer. I was think that instead of having a glavier it should be a unit with a Naginata. or since you have already made the unit have the Ashigaru level up into the glavier then into the Naginata. I would be very simple to edit the glavier art to make a unit with the naginata. just this the
Dont worry naginata will be used, yamabushi and sohei will be using it.And mounted samurai if it doesnt break the RIPLIB thing.And chinese didnt had naginata but a weapon called guan dao wich is similar to glaive but better.
I'd go with the hoe, if I were you--The Japanese have never been big on cows, and as such have never been big on hay, and as such there is no such thing as a Japanese pitchfork
I am thinking of dropping out the peseant unit, because he takes only place in leveling.
Also, I fail to see the connection between a ninja and a geisha... What if you were to have call them something along the lines of Genin->Chuunin->Juunin? (I believe that was the progression in most ninja clans)
I am trying to avoid it because when they would be done as it was accurate than the diversity of unit would be almost none. And the geisha I readed somewhere that they were sometime used as assasins...not sure on that but could be truth.
Maybe the Samurai line would have more health, and leadership once it hits level three, and the Rounin line would be more badass with his swords.
I was planing this the whole time :twisted:
And to avoid violating RIPLIB, you could split the mounted line off entirely:
Hmmmm good idea...but samurais were known as skilled archers and horseman...so it would be weird.
On a historical note, I don't think the Japanese or the Chinese ever used crossbows--They had firearms much earlier than Western nations, and firearms fill pretty much the same niche as crossbows, but are much more effective
I have to strongly disagree:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oyumi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repeating_crossbow
And the fun part is that firearms to japan were delivered by westerners. Japan was mainly isolated from the whole world and they were more focused on traditions than technology those days. And first guns were so unstable and unrelaiable that armies mostly used crossbows or longbows, but when the flintlock mechanism was first invented crossbows and longbows almost dissapeared.

Skizzaltix
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Re: Descendants of the dragon

Post by Skizzaltix »

>>oyumi
I stand corrected--Learn something new every day on here ;)

Samurai tended to be pretty good at all martial arts--I mean, that was their job. So, maybe keep the mounted Samurai as a level two advancement option... But you'd need a scout, so maybe a simple rider? Fast, but weak, whereas the mounted Samurai is basically a quicker ubertank. Or maybe the ninja line could be given a quicker movespeed, so that they could take the role of village-grabbing... :hmm:

>>ninja diversity
True... Though, think of it like this: The straight ninja line are just fairly standard stealth-assassins (Maybe nightstalk, or whatever) with a melee attack and shuriken.
Then, for the nukenin, you could go crazy with a few of the stranger weapons ninja used. Maybe a melee suntetsu or the like: Single or possibly double strike, fairly low damage, slows... For ranged, maybe a fukiya; two or three hits, medium-high damage. And then, I bet you could do something really cool with metsubushi, if you made a custom WML "blinding" special--Maybe reduces enemy CTH and CTD--for them :D
Also, you could keep the geisha--But split her off to another line. Something like this:
Sonsousha->Geisha->Kunoichi
You could stick some of the crazier weapons in there. Maybe give the Nukenin a shikoroken melee and a fukiya ranged, with the Kunoichi having a suntetsu or shobo melee attack and a metsubushi ranged attack :hmm:
(For the historical accuracy of Geisha being Kunoichi--It's pretty much a myth. More likely, a Kunoichi would be planted as a maid or the like in a lord's house to spy on him, and there also may have been a few Geisha-Kunoichi, so once the idea got out, it quickly became a popular fantasy. That said, don't let bind yourself too closely to real history if it stops you from making a cool unit!)

Anyway, up to you how you feel like implementing this stuff, and I look forward to seeing what you do!

bonehead11
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Re: Descendants of the dragon

Post by bonehead11 »

Wow you are pretty good at ninja stuff :shock: True...
True... Though, think of it like this: The straight ninja line are just fairly standard stealth-assassins (Maybe nightstalk, or whatever) with a melee attack and shuriken.
Again I have to object...ninja was warrior using unorthodox ways of fighting assasination,stealth,sabotage,guerilla warfare etc. shortened every warrior who wasnt following bushido like now special forces. :eng: And shuriken were mainly used for distraction...
Samurai tended to be pretty good at all martial arts--I mean, that was their job. So, maybe keep the mounted Samurai as a level two advancement option... But you'd need a scout, so maybe a simple rider? Fast, but weak, whereas the mounted Samurai is basically a quicker ubertank. Or maybe the ninja line could be given a quicker movespeed, so that they could take the role of village-grabbing...
I want samurai to be mainly ranged unit with decent meele attack and mounted will be used as scout, because samurai were mainly archers on horse so you know.In the younger periods samurais didnt used katanas they used tanto instead in meele.
Then, for the nukenin, you could go crazy with a few of the stranger weapons ninja used. Maybe a melee suntetsu or the like: Single or possibly double strike, fairly low damage, slows... For ranged, maybe a fukiya; two or three hits, medium-high damage. And then, I bet you could do something really cool with metsubushi, if you made a custom WML "blinding" special--Maybe reduces enemy CTH and CTD--for them
Also, you could keep the geisha--But split her off to another line. Something like this:
Sonsousha->Geisha->Kunoichi
You could stick some of the crazier weapons in there. Maybe give the Nukenin a shikoroken melee and a fukiya ranged, with the Kunoichi having a suntetsu or shobo melee attack and a metsubushi ranged attack
(For the historical accuracy of Geisha being Kunoichi--It's pretty much a myth. More likely, a Kunoichi would be planted as a maid or the like in a lord's house to spy on him, and there also may have been a few Geisha-Kunoichi, so once the idea got out, it quickly became a popular fantasy. That said, don't let bind yourself too closely to real history if it stops you from making a cool unit!)

Anyway, up to you how you feel like implementing this stuff, and I look forward to seeing what you do!
I didnt knew that there is so much info on ninjas :shock: Im impressed. I will surely add the Kunoichi line and think about the nukenin but now im a little confused...I only wanted to add ninja as bonus but now...I dont know have to think about it and discuss it...and those special attacks, we will see if mnewton can do miracles.
By the way great stuff!!! 8)

Skizzaltix
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Re: Descendants of the dragon

Post by Skizzaltix »

>>again I have to object
By "fairly standard stealth-assassin", I meant, "unorthodox, guerrilla-style warfare"--Thus, we are actually agreeing with each other on this point ;)

>>shuriken as distraction
Indeed--I wouldn't think they'd be at all powerful, probably something like 3-2. On another custom-WML note, it could be cool to have some sort of "drop caltrops" ability for the Ninja lines--That was a rather popular trick, as I recall. Maybe the caltrops, when moved across, could cause some minor damage and slow? :hmm:

>>Samurai mainly ranged
Fair enough--Though it might feel a little odd to many players, as the Western notion of Samurai rarely involves archery.
Alternatively, you could make them scary in melee and ranged combat, but ridiculously expensive... Maybe not the best route to take.
I believe that a Samurai was usually granted his (Or her) daishou upon proving his worth to a lord--Perhaps by winning a large kendou tournament, or completing some difficult task. However, as you said, up until that point, he would wield tantou, as wielding a sword of which he was not worthy would be a terrible insult to the weapon... Maybe only give them the daishou once they hit level two?
That said, you definitely want to keep yumi in there... Actually, this opens up another possibility for the Rounin->Kensei line: The Samurai line is more powerful in ranged combat, whereas the Rounin is much weaker (Or possibly has no ranged attack at all--Who wants to pay for arrows or spend time making them when you can barely feed yourself?) but has some deadly melee moves :cool:

>>ninja knowledge
My father's something of a Japanophile, so there are a lot of books about Japanese culture and history kicking around my house... Probably where most of it came from.

bonehead11
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Re: Descendants of the dragon

Post by bonehead11 »

>>again I have to object
By "fairly standard stealth-assassin", I meant, "unorthodox, guerrilla-style warfare"--Thus, we are actually agreeing with each other on this point
Unorthodox warfare could be even setting traps or using dirty tricks in fight so its wide opened.
>>shuriken as distraction
Indeed--I wouldn't think they'd be at all powerful, probably something like 3-2. On another custom-WML note, it could be cool to have some sort of "drop caltrops" ability for the Ninja lines--That was a rather popular trick, as I recall. Maybe the caltrops, when moved across, could cause some minor damage and slow?
It would be cool if it could be programed the caltrops, making a trap and when enemy walks trough it bam small dmg and slow down.
>>Samurai mainly ranged
Fair enough--Though it might feel a little odd to many players, as the Western notion of Samurai rarely involves archery.
Alternatively, you could make them scary in melee and ranged combat, but ridiculously expensive... Maybe not the best route to take.
I believe that a Samurai was usually granted his (Or her) daishou upon proving his worth to a lord--Perhaps by winning a large kendou tournament, or completing some difficult task. However, as you said, up until that point, he would wield tantou, as wielding a sword of which he was not worthy would be a terrible insult to the weapon... Maybe only give them the daishou once they hit level two?
That said, you definitely want to keep yumi in there... Actually, this opens up another possibility for the Rounin->Kensei line: The Samurai line is more powerful in ranged combat, whereas the Rounin is much weaker (Or possibly has no ranged attack at all--Who wants to pay for arrows or spend time making them when you can barely feed yourself?) but has some deadly melee moves
But the truth was that samurai were mainly archers.Citation from wikipedia "However the use of swords did not become common in battle until the Kamakura period (1185–1333), where the tachi and uchigatana (the predecessor to the katana) became prevalent. The katana itself did not become the primary weapon until the Edo period."..There is even martial art wich was focused on archery wich was invented by samurai, kyujustu now know and practiced as kyudo. And ronin will have weak ranged attack maybe some knives low dmg so he wouldnt be defensless against ranged.
>>ninja knowledge
My father's something of a Japanophile, so there are a lot of books about Japanese culture and history kicking around my house... Probably where most of it came from.
Japanophile :lol2:

Skizzaltix
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Re: Descendants of the dragon

Post by Skizzaltix »

>>Samurai Kyuudou
Very true--However, by the time of the Seven Year War (1592-98), which was when teppou really began to become prevalent (I believe they were first introduced in the Sengoku period), the Samurai were fairly balanced, even leaning a little bit towards melee :hmm:
Actually, this raises the question of, when exactly is this era set, or does it draw bits and pieces from all over the place?

>>Caltrops
I bet that could be done with WML... Maybe have it be a right-click menu option for the Ninja which spawns an on_move event for that hex, and (If possible), draws in a little caltrops image that would only be visible to the player which dropped them...
Probably want to make it cost some of the Ninja's MS, too.

>>Rounin ranged attack
Fair enough--Though, I sort of feel like making him defenseless to ranged attacks could be more interesting... But obviously that's up to you, and in the end it's something that the balancing process will decide.

>>Japanophile
Otaku--please ;)

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mnewton1
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Re: Descendants of the dragon

Post by mnewton1 »

Ok you guys have fun with your ideas. I have given up only following what you are saying so just tell me what to do :mrgreen:
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Skizzaltix
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Re: Descendants of the dragon

Post by Skizzaltix »

What! Never give up, merely strive harder! ;)

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mnewton1
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Re: Descendants of the dragon

Post by mnewton1 »

lol i tried but then i realized i do not know half of the words you are using

Kyuudou teppou Sengoku Japanophile Otaku

Edit: bonehead, can you send me a quick summary of the Dragon Raider, Daimyo, and the Winged Dragon
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Skizzaltix
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Re: Descendants of the dragon

Post by Skizzaltix »

Wikipedia is your friend :P

Kyuudou: The art of using a Japanese Yumi, or longbow.
Teppou: A Japanese flintlock musket (Also just means "gun" in some circumstances--But "Juu" is much more common)
Sengoku: The Sengoku Jidai--Meaning "Warring States Era". A period in Japanese history spanning from the mid-1400s to the mid-1600s. Generally a period of upheaval and civil unrest in Japan, with rival Daimyou battling for each other's land, the "Black Ships" from Europe arriving in great numbers (Bringing with them firearms, incurable disease, and Christianity), and natural disasters in great numbers. It gradually ended with the "Shougun's Peace", and the Edo period followed.
Japanophile: One who is greatly interested in Japanese culture and/or history. Comes from the same root as necrophilia, if that's any help.
Otaku: A Japanese word referring to someone who is completely obsessed with something to the point where they live only for that thing--Usually anime and/or video games.

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mnewton1
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Re: Descendants of the dragon

Post by mnewton1 »

Ok I have decided to do a lot of coding today. So I also redid the unit tree a little. I think it makes a little more sense this way. I have also got the faction part working too. So once you have the sprite art done we should be ready for the demo. I will add the units once I am done them

Code: Select all

North faction:

                                                                      
        --Ashigaru Swordsman--Dragon Warrior--Son of Dragon--Bloodbrother
                                            --Dragon Raider--Winged Dragon
--Peasant
                                  
        --Ashigaru Longbowman--Samurai--Mounted Samurai
                                      --Elite Samurai--Daimyo
                                                     
                                          
        --Monk--Sohei
              --Bishop--Disciple of Dragon--Halfbreed
                         --Enlightened--Whiterobe
                         --Sage--Master Sage
              --Yamabushi
        --Assasin--Ninja--Geisha
South faction:

        --Ashigaru--Glaivier--Goldenspearman--GuanDao
                  --Headcutter--Axemaster--Kaze

       --Ronin--Swordsman--Kensei
                             
                             --Arquebusier--Musketeer
        --XbowAshigaru--Marksman--Sharpshooter
                             --Alchemist--Archalchemist--Dragonflame
        --Monk--Herbalist--Medicineman
                  --Hermit--Mountain Hermit
        --Bountyhunter--Mercenary--Shinobi


EDIT: I HAVE DONE IT!!! North faction completely coded and tested!!!!! Now I i need you do do some more sprite art. Including an Ashigaru with a longbow
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