Need help with balancing

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Octavius
Posts: 27
Joined: June 8th, 2007, 2:23 am

Need help with balancing

Post by Octavius »

Hello, I'm General Octavius, and I've been working on a faction called the Federation, which is based on the Roman army used by the Republic and Empire. This is my first time working on an entirely new functional faction, so I need a little help with balancing, for now, with the default factions.

Before I show you everything, I'll just tell you a little about the new faction. First off, the country that owns the army is a small empire somewhere in the eastern continent far from Wesnoth, with Humans, Elves and Dwarves as citizens. They were once a small city making its living from farming (Humans did the lion share of the farming work), mining (The dwarves made up most of the mining workers)with the elves providing some food from hunting and gathering, in addition from useful medicine derived from natural herbs.

It was a small peaceful country with few conflicts, until war escalated between the Federation and its neighbours (I haven't worked on who its Neighbours were yet). At first, the Federation army was poorly trained and inexperienced, and hopelessly outnumbered. Using guerilla tactics, the country was barely surviving and through time, their army was reformed and they beat back the invaders (I haven't worked on this part yet).

NOW.... about the army. As they were outnumbered then, emphasis was put on every valuable men. They formed legionaries, which are hard to kill and relied on their resilience to tire out the enemy. This is possible only through their high-quality armor and fierce discipline. Other forms of soldiers are neglected, but after the war, new types of units began to form so that there would be archers, cavalries and other support units to help out the Legionaries.

NOW, onto the units! Finally!

Legionary:
Hitpoints-60
Race: Human
Movement type- Small foot
Movement-5
Experience needed-40
Level-1
Alignment-Lawful
Advance to-Elite Legionary
Cost-21
Usage-Fighter
Resistances-
pierce=50%
blade=50%
holy=20%
impact=40%
Attack1-
Name: Sword
Type: Blade
Range: Melee
Damage: 8
Number: 2
Special: First-strike

Attack2-
Name: Crossbow
Type: Pierce
Range: Ranged
Damage: 10
number: 1

Elite Legionary:
Hitpoints-75
Race: Human
Movement type- Small foot
Movement-5
Experience needed-40
Level-2
Alignment-Lawful
Advance to-Null
Cost-31
Usage-Fighter
Resistances-
pierce=60%
blade=60%
holy=40%
impact=50%
Attack1-
Name: Sword
Type: Blade
Range: Melee
Damage: 11
Number: 2
Special: First-strike

Attack2-
Name: Crossbow
Type: Pierce
Range: Ranged
Damage: 14
number: 1

Spear Auxilia:
Hitpoints-50
Race: Human
Movement type- Small foot
Movement-6
Experience needed-40
Level-1
Alignment-Lawful
Advance to-Null
Cost-17
Usage-Fighter
Resistances-
pierce=50%
blade=50%
holy=20%
impact=40%
Attack1-
Name: Spear
Type: Pierce
Range: Melee
Damage: 6
Number: 2
Special: First-strike

Attack2-
Name: None
Type: N/A
Range: N/A
Damage: 0
number: 0

Elven Auxilia:
Hitpoints-30
Race: Elf
Movement type- Woodland
Movement-6
Experience needed-40
Level-1
Alignment-Lawful
Advance to-Null
Cost-16
Usage-Archer
Resistances-
pierce=0%
blade=0%
holy=20%
impact=0%
Attack1-
Name: Dagger
Type: Blade
Range: Melee
Damage: 6
Number: 1
Special: None

Attack2-
Name: Bow
Type: Pierce
Range: Ranged
Damage: 6
number: 4

Equites Auxilia:
Hitpoints-50
Race: Human
Movement type- Mounted
Movement-8
Experience needed-40
Level-1
Alignment-Lawful
Advance to-Null
Cost-18
Usage-Fighter
Resistances-
pierce=20%
blade=20%
holy=20%
impact=20%
Attack1-
Name: Spear
Type: Pierce
Range: Melee
Damage: 6
Number: 2
Special: Charge

Attack2-
Name: Spear
Type: Pierce
Range: Melee
Damage: 14
number: 1
Special: Charge

Captain:
Hitpoints-60
Race: Human
Movement type- Small foot
Movement-5
Experience needed-40
Level-3
Alignment-Lawful
Advance to-Commander
Cost-31
Usage-Fighter
Resistances-
pierce=60%
blade=60%
holy=40%
impact=50%
Special Ability: Leadership level 2
Attack1-
Name: Sword
Type: Blade
Range: Melee
Damage: 6
Number: 2
Special: First-strike

Attack2-
Name: Crossbow
Type: Pierce
Range: Ranged
Damage: 8
number: 1

Commander:
Hitpoints-70
Race: Human
Movement type- Small foot
Movement-5
Experience needed-80
Level-4
Alignment-Lawful
Advance to-Null
Cost-41
Usage-Fighter
Resistances-
pierce=60%
blade=60%
holy=40%
impact=50%
Special Ability: Leadership level 3
Attack1-
Name: Sword
Type: Blade
Range: Melee
Damage: 6
Number: 2
Special: First-strike

Attack2-
Name: Crossbow
Type: Pierce
Range: Ranged
Damage: 8
number: 1

For now, that is all the unit I have came up with. It's still a work in progress- the faction. I'm still planning to add some Dwarfs into the army, but I'm still planning what role to give them.

So what do you think?

What role should I give the Dwarves? (For this, I have already arrived at several possibilities. I could give them the role of 'Limitaneis', soldiers used to hold the front lines, but would definately be very expensive for the quality the player gets)

What do you think I should include? (I'm thinking of more Elven units, and level 0 units, such as Prefects, who are undergraduates of the Legionary academy serving as guards and nightwatchers [Or medieval policemen]. They will become legionary after they level up.)

Do I have potential as a modder of this game?

Can I have my lunch?
Drake Blademaster
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Joined: March 26th, 2007, 5:38 am
Location: Wesmere

Post by Drake Blademaster »

Well, as you said, you need to work on the story, but what you have so far is pretty good. :D As far as the units go, [IMO]having units that end at lvl 1 is not very good[/IMO] When it comes to the dwarves, they can be used as a sort of heavy-artillery-ish unit, that hold the front lines, as you said. The humans, however, are very good. my only suggestion would be to made a lvl 3 unit or two, and like you said, a lvl 0 would be a nice little thing to add. All in all, especially for a first post about a new concept (well, new for you) very good. :D :wink:
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Octavius
Posts: 27
Joined: June 8th, 2007, 2:23 am

Post by Octavius »

Well, I made a few changes recently:

-Added the Prefect, a level 0 unit that makes a jump to become the Legionary after leveling up. I made it harder for them to level up though.
-Made the Legionary a level 2 unit instead of level 1.
-Made the Elite Legionary a level 3 unit instead of level 2.
-Made the Captain a level 2 unit instead of level 1.
-Made the Commander a level 3 unit instead of level 2.
-Gave the Captain a Leadership level 3 ability so that he could command all units other than the Captain, Commander and Elite Legionary
-Gave the Commander a Leadership level 4 ability so that he could command all units.
jdsampayo
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Location: Mexico
Contact:

Post by jdsampayo »

Octavius wrote:Well, I made a few changes recently:

-Added the Prefect, a level 0 unit that makes a jump to become the Legionary after leveling up. I made it harder for them to level up though.
-Made the Legionary a level 2 unit instead of level 1.
With these two args I see something inconsistent, the Legionary will be level 1 or 2?

Also, I think 60% resistant to pierce and blade its too high, they need to have some weakness to something. As they attack both ranged and melee, they're too powerful.
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Octavius
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Joined: June 8th, 2007, 2:23 am

Post by Octavius »

The Legionaries would be Level 2, that's why I said that the Prefects would 'make a jump' and become Legionaries instead. I guess that analogy/metaphor doesn't really quite fit I guess, but that's what I meant.

Anyway, rest assured that the Legionaries do have weaknesses. Notice that they have no protection at all against fire, cold, arcane, and very little against holy attacks. They are outfitted against physical attacks, something like the Heavy Infantrymen but a little better.

Also, their attacks are significantly weak. While they have very high health and resistance, notice how few damage they could inflict and how many times they are able to strike. For melee, they have two tries, and for range, they only have one.

But is it still not balanced with all those weaknesses? Because for some reason, I have doubts that it is balanced, even after trying it out against the AI with the original factions. It took me quite a while to gain the upper hand and acquire victory.

Oh, and right, I forget to mention some other changes:
-Made the Legionary, Elite Legionary, Captain and Commander slower from a speed of 5 to 4.

Anyway, editing further, this is the level-up tree for the Federation army:
Attachments
Levelup tree.PNG
Levelup tree.PNG (24.19 KiB) Viewed 3913 times
Troy
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Location: some where,but not sure where
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Post by Troy »

I have a legionarie image in "my images" tread, it needs some work though.
well, all for the better good than for the bad good.

new forum
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Octavius
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Joined: June 8th, 2007, 2:23 am

Post by Octavius »

Yep, I found it, but it is only one image, and using it would destroy the consistency of the sprites. *Sign* If only I know how to make sprites. Thanks, Troy.
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Temuchin Khan
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Joined: September 3rd, 2004, 6:35 pm
Location: Player 6 on the original Agaia map

Post by Temuchin Khan »

Download the Imperial Era. It includes a faction, the Lavinian Legion, that is loosely based on the armies of the Roman Republic around the time of Hannibal's defeat and the Early Roman Empire.
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Octavius
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Joined: June 8th, 2007, 2:23 am

Post by Octavius »

I can't believe somebody has already taken the idea of basing a faction on the Romans... Thanks anyway for the suggestion.
Weeksy
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Location: Oregon

Post by Weeksy »

if you could post a .zip with the faction in it, and possibly a few other default factions you think would have similar strengths/weaknesses to what else you want in this era, I'd be able to give you some good balance feedback.
If enough people bang their heads against a brick wall, The brick wall will fall down
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Octavius
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Joined: June 8th, 2007, 2:23 am

Post by Octavius »

Okay, I'll just make a few tweaks first before I post it up here.

And I've just noticed a major error in my faction design. The army's damage types includes only pierce and blade damage, nothing else. I was utterly run overed by the undeads, but I got lucky when it got careless and sent its leader straight into 3 legionaries, 1 Spear Auxilia and 1 Elven Auxilia.

I need to do something about this. Also, there's still no magical support, and no dwarves... Hmm...

I think I need to change alot of things...
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Octavius
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Joined: June 8th, 2007, 2:23 am

Post by Octavius »

Alright, I think I'm done tweaking for now. I've made too many changes to list here, so I'll just jump straight to releasing a beta version of my faction, and of course, to brief those who wanted to help out with the testing.

Briefing-

Faction description: The Federation army is heavily reliant on quality, over quantity, and would not function properly without their Legionaries spearheading any military operation. To reflect this, Level 2 and level 3 units are made available for recruitment, at a high but affordable price. This is an important feature as some level 2 and 3 units cannot be gained by leveling up level 0 and 1 units.

In order to control the Federation army properly, you would need to know what tactics to use. The most basic placement of units would be to leave the Prefects and Garrisons behind to guard villages and key places, while using your legionaries to form a battle line against the enemy, with various Auxilias supporting them whenever necessary. To improve the performance of your army, you would need at least a captain for every battleline, and to place your Auxilias behind the Legionaries or in favourable terrain until it is necessary to bring them forward.

In the Federation army, the Legionary is both the backbone and most versatile unit. Therefore, there should be more Legionaries than other units. However, you could modify your army in any way you see fit, especially when the Legionaries are ineffective. One example scenario would be against the Undead. Crossbows and Swords have little effect on Skeletons and the various ghost units. So you would need more Dwarves- they use hammers and firebombs, both of which are effective against the undead, with Elves to back them up, as they can fire flame arrows.

Unit Descriptions-

(Statistics will not be provided here as it would be in the game once you install the faction)

Prefect- Prefects are the only level 0 units recruitable in the faction. Despite being level 0 units, they are more resilient than normal, but are weak at attack just like the Legionaries. They are used commonly used to guard places of some but not utmost importance. When under attack by multiple units, try to relieve them as soon as possible

Garrison- Garrisons are level 1 intermediates between the Prefect and Legionary. While better than Prefects, the Garrisons are weaker than Legionaries, and should never be placed in the frontlines where death awaits. They should be used to guard places of high importance like vulnerable villages and certain gaps where enemies could slip through, but should never be expected to hold out indefinately especially when attacked by several units.

Spear Auxilia- A level 1 unit that can be recruited, or derived from the Prefects. These are support units that carry spears, but unlike their Loyalist Spearmen counterparts, they do not have Javelins. They should be used against units with vulnerabilities to Pierce damage, such as Drakes and Cavalry units. They could hold the front lines, but not for long.

Equites Auxilia- Another level 1 unit that can either be recruited or derived from Prefects. These are also support units, and functions as Horsemen for the Federation army. They have two modes of attack, both of which does piercing damage, which gives them similar roles as the Spear Auxilia, but should be used with hit-and-run tactics, as they are more vulnerable to attacks than the Spear Auxilias. These Auxilias should be used for shock or to hunt down retreating units- which they could do very well as their second mode of attack is a damaging charge attack.

Elven Auxilia- A level 1 unit made of elves, and thus retain certain elven attributes, such as the ability to fortify well in woodlands. They serve as quality archers in the Federation, but are weak at melee. They have two types of ranged attacks- the first one is a quick barrage of four waves of arrow, and the second one would be fire arrows, fired in two volleys. They can be used against units vulnerable to ranged attacks.

Legionary- The mainstay unit of the Federation. These level 2 Human units fought with swords and crossbows, but their greatest feature of all is their ability to withstand large amounts of stress, even when surrounded with enemies. However, their attacks are weaker than average for a level 2 unit, as they rely on resilience and resistance to outlast their enemies, forcing them to retreat after sustaining heavy losses. They should be used to form battlelines against the enemy, and slowly push them back.

However, while they are resilient against physical damage, they are weak against arcane, fire, cold and holy damage, which could lead to their downfall. They would not be able to stand for long against such damage.

Dwarven Auxilia- The only level 2 Auxilia in the Federation army. These Dwarves has even more healthpoints than Legionaries, but wears armour that are weaker against physical damage, though more versatile, able to withstand arcane, fire and cold damage better. They are armed with Warhammers which does impact damage and firebombs, which does fire damage when thrown at the enemy.

Due to their versatile armor and uncommon (in the Federation) damage type, they are best dispatched against enemies resistant to Legionaries.

Elite Legionary- A level 3 incarnation of the Legionary, gained by leveling up the Legionary. They are better in every way, and are valuable when gained. Losing one would be a big blow to your plans.

Captain- A Level 3 unit weaker in attack than the Level 2 Legionary, but has the leadership ability, which increases the attack damage of surrounding units. They should be placed directly behind the battleline to improve the performance of the army. They are slightly more healthier and resistant than Legionaries however.

Commander- The only Level 4 unit in the faction. They are not much better than the Captain, except that they have a higher leveled leadership ability, and their higher level enables them to command anyone.

Below is a level-up tree for the faction. It would give you a clear picture of the promotion scheme in the faction. The zip file would be compiled and posted in a while.
Attachments
The level-up tree of the Federation faction, created by Octavius
The level-up tree of the Federation faction, created by Octavius
Levelup tree 2.PNG (27.5 KiB) Viewed 3791 times
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Octavius
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Post by Octavius »

Instructions for installation. Put the cfg files in their respective folders accordingly. The units should be in 'C:\Program Files\Wesnoth\data\core\units', while the faction should be in 'C:\Program Files\Wesnoth\data\multiplayer\factions'.

Copy and paste this into your eras.cfg in 'C:\Program Files\Wesnoth\data\multiplayer':

[era]
id=era_federation_expansion
name= _ "Federation Expansion"

{RANDOM_SIDE}
{multiplayer/factions/loyalists-default.cfg}
{multiplayer/factions/rebels-default.cfg}
{multiplayer/factions/northerners-default.cfg}
{multiplayer/factions/undead-default.cfg}
{multiplayer/factions/knalgans-default.cfg}
{multiplayer/factions/drakes-default.cfg}
{multiplayer/factions/federation-default.cfg}
[/era]

And you're all set. You should then be able to test the balance between the Federation and all the other factions.
Attachments
Federation faction Beta.zip
Beta version of the Federation faction. Status of balance unsure. Needs testing.
(12.39 KiB) Downloaded 179 times
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Octavius
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Joined: June 8th, 2007, 2:23 am

Post by Octavius »

I'm going to need some help with testing. Anyone up to it?

No one downloaded the Beta faction from yesterday until now... 16 hours have gone... :cry:
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Octavius
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Post by Octavius »

Calling out to the two good men who have tested my beta faction... how was it? Was it :( ? Or was it :) ?
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