solidifying the Void

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zookeeper
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Post by zookeeper »

Darth Fool wrote:Alternatively, what about just having it so that the background is sampled from a scenario specific image? Scenario designers could then decide to make table, map, whatever background for the edges that fit their campaign.
The background is already supposed to be made scenario- and/or theme-specifiable when it's implemented, so no worries there.
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Eleazar
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Post by Eleazar »

Darth Fool wrote:What about doing one of the following:

Using something like a wercator style for hexes outside the usable map?
(http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic. ... 7659#57659)
No. That approach doesn't solve any problems, it just pushes the problems back a bit, and requires an alternate "wercator" terrain set to be added to the t-g.CFG.

Again the computer can't know how to make terrain outside of the map bounds, so it make sense relative to playable map. Is that hex of water on the edge of the map 1) a small pool of water, or 2) a river that should continue? Which way is the river going? Should it be straight, or curvy?

So the Wercator terrain would have to be defined by the map-maker. Basically it's just sapien'ts make-the-minimum-map-bigger-than-any-screen solution, only it requires a lot more art-work.


Of course map-makers are free to add as much padding to the edges as they want, but no automated generation, especially filling large spaces will really work.
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Post by Sapient »

Of course map-makers are free to add as much padding to the edges as they want, but no automated generation, especially filling large spaces will really work.
I see automated generation as a superset of this proposal. For example, if you surround the outer edge of the map with void, then show it on a jumbo screen, then the C++ could automatically generate more void to expand the map. Using this proposal, it could then be "solid void".
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Post by Eleazar »

Sigh
Reposting:

notice that only with extra padding around the edges can tall things— villages, elven trees fit in the top row of hexes without being chopped off.
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Jetrel
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Post by Jetrel »

Eleazar wrote:Sigh
Reposting:

notice that only with extra padding around the edges can tall things— villages, elven trees fit in the top row of hexes without being chopped off.
Your new post is considerably easier to understand, if I remember the old one right. :D
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Post by Jetrel »

Ivanovic gave me a RFC on this:

I'm basically handing Eleazar+SkeletonCrew a blank check. I like the "map sitting on flat wood," and I think they can handle the finer details.
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Post by irrevenant »

Jetryl wrote:Ivanovic gave me a RFC on this:

I'm basically handing Eleazar+SkeletonCrew a blank check. I like the "map sitting on flat wood," and I think they can handle the finer details.
That sounds very cool.

IMO, the map currently looks like it blends into the wood rather than sitting on it. Perhaps a harder (but not black-black) edge on the terrain would achieve that better?
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Post by Eleazar »

@Jetryl
thanks for the vote of confidence.


The point of these mock-ups is not to offer the binary choice, "do you want Wesnoth to look exactly like this or exactly the way it always has?", but to show in a general way what things would look like without half-hexes.

Once the code allows this, the actual appearance will probably evolve, and eventually be refined. There are a number of interesting possibilities for the transition between the map and the off-map. Those will be easier to evaluate within the map editor.

:arrow: Summary: The graphic-concepts aren't in the final form, but I'm confident this is the way to go.
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Post by SkeletonCrew »

Jetryl wrote:Ivanovic gave me a RFC on this:

I'm basically handing Eleazar+SkeletonCrew a blank check. I like the "map sitting on flat wood," and I think they can handle the finer details.
Oke thanks :) I'm going to start with the changes soon then.
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I'm against abolishing half-hexes

Post by esr »

I'm against abolishing half-hexes for a very simple reason; I think they help create a sense of a world outside the visible map.

The void-bordered and wood-grain mockups feel claustrophobic to me.
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Eleazar
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Re: I'm against abolishing half-hexes

Post by Eleazar »

esr wrote:I'm against abolishing half-hexes for a very simple reason; I think they help create a sense of a world outside the visible map.

The void-bordered and wood-grain mockups feel claustrophobic to me.
I've addressed that point. did you read the thread?
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I did read the thread, and I don't get it

Post by esr »

I did read the thread, and I don't see where this point was addressed.
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Eleazar
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Post by Eleazar »

esr wrote:I did read the thread, and I don't see where this point was addressed.
Eleazar wrote:
irrevenant wrote:It actually gives a visual confirmation that the world continues beyond the immediate screen.
If a map maker is interested in that, he's free to add extra hexes around the outside of the map. I think he can even make certain hexes arbitrarily impassable. That would much more effectively convey the feel of a big world.
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Post by mog »

Eleazar wrote:
irrevenant wrote:It actually gives a visual confirmation that the world continues beyond the immediate screen.
If a map maker is interested in that, he's free to add extra hexes around the outside of the map. I think he can even make certain hexes arbitrarily impassable. That would much more effectively convey the feel of a big world.
That would indeed be an ideal solution. But how exactly would that be implemented? I can't think of a really clean way (that's backwards compatible).

Easiest would be to simply always use the hexes at the edges as the border, but that would require another map-conversion.
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Eleazar
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Post by Eleazar »

mog wrote:
Eleazar wrote: If a map maker is interested in that, he's free to add extra hexes around the outside of the map. I think he can even make certain hexes arbitrarily impassable. That would much more effectively convey the feel of a big world.
That would indeed be an ideal solution. But how exactly would that be implemented?
The "arbitrarily impassable" line was just an after-thought i threw in. Perhaps i'm mistaken, but i thought it could be done with scenario WML.
I'm not eager for another terrain revamp.

:arrow: main point:
However, even without such barriers, extra terrain can still be added around the outsides of most/many maps. As an example, many maps from tSG have large portions that aren't tactically relevant to the scenario.

This sort of map-making approach is much more effective in creating the illusion of a continuing world than any sort of automated half-hexs. And it's in the total control of the map-maker.

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Feel free to PM me if you start a new terrain oriented thread. It's easy for me to miss them among all the other art threads.
-> What i might be working on
Attempting Lucidity
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