Someone dare to beat me with an undead

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telly
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Post by telly »

And to be fair to Bibleist, it's worse for Undead.
In my experience, although a superficial comparsion of the factions units might suggest otherwise, undead are quite a lot better on charge. Even having the second turn they should win easily over loyalists.
telly
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Post by telly »

(Who here has seen Arthur recruit all Fencers against Drakes? He really is more than a little bit clueless, and is lightyears away from the level of play that he presumes to inhabit.)
Yeah I wanted to play him myself when I saw this challenge but then seeing him go all fencers in a 3v3 convinced me it wasn't worth the effort :).
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Doc Paterson
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Post by Doc Paterson »

telly wrote:
And to be fair to Bibleist, it's worse for Undead.
In my experience, although a superficial comparsion of the factions units might suggest otherwise, undead are quite a lot better on charge. Even having the second turn they should win easily over loyalists.
I respect your opinion, but remember, Undead have really changed a lot since 0.8. (I might be wrong, but I thought I saw you post something about not playing Undead much since the Old Days. :) )They have a tough time on Charge against the Loys because they're very "boxed-in" in a sense; bats are very vulnerable, adepts move slowly over the terrain, and Loy mages have a much easier time getting within 5 moves of their many targets. If you're using Adepts to keep pace with their mages and punish Heavy Infantry, the huge mobility of the Horseman becomes a serious issue. Not insurmountable by any means, but a good Loyalist player ought to at least make a close match of it.

8)
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Post by King Arthur »

I don't remember this 3x3, the only 3x3 I remeber recently was one in wich I was against orcs.

But I do remember a 2x2 wich I was against drakes, and the other players recruited only burners, in the begining I hired about 4 fencers and started to take his villages with skirmishing, since he could not kill even one fencer at night because of the 70% defense and drakes being lawfull. I took a lot of villages and at day he attacked me. Although I had also hired spearman later, the fencers made quite some damage to him because burners don't have a very good melee attack and have horrible defenses %. Night came again and the fencers could still kill him, since their attack goes from 5-4 to a small reduction of 4-4 at night. So yes, I think fencers are a great unit. I use them as scouts on small maps.

Even me not remembering this 3x3 you talk about, I probably had a good reason to do it. I may be not so great as I say in my jokes here but I'm definatly not a bad player.

And as for that map charge, loyalists may be bad in it and undead a slight good, but I was quite stupid there.

Doc, you may be a great player as people say, but next time I see you I'll beat you, even if I lose you'll have a hard time to beat me. You'll reconsider some of your present statements.
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SmurF
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Post by SmurF »

Can't even beat me king arthur on your own map.. there is no chance you can beat Doc paterson or any other player with a brain and knows that blitz is an imbalanced map (forced me to play on it and he still lost.. lol)..

<(G.G)> ur on my bad side King arthur .. ENJOY! :x
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Doc Paterson
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Post by Doc Paterson »

King Arthur wrote:Doc, you may be a great player as people say, but next time I see you I'll beat you, even if I lose you'll have a hard time
"Next time I see you I'll beat you....even if I lose...."

:idea:

Very Zen. 8)

:idea:


Smurf, what were the factions used in that match? Post up the replay in my archive if you get a chance. That goes for you too King- If you've got any entertaining matches, post them up.
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telly
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Post by telly »

The loyalist's units aren't as strong as they look. Just attack with skeletons and corpses, while you steal all their villages at the sides with bats. Heavy infantry even isn't really a problem as its too expensive and slow and has low defence. Even if they beat back your skeletons, you can just recruit adepts or ghosts to finish them off.
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Post by Doc Paterson »

telly wrote:The loyalist's units aren't as strong as they look. Just attack with skeletons and corpses, while you steal all their villages at the sides with bats. Heavy infantry even isn't really a problem as its too expensive and slow and has low defence.
I think that's really oversimplifying, and HI really has no problem getting in range of Skeletons, provided the Skeleton isn't deep inside one of the terrain patches, wasting its time. And low defense? Are you saying you'd be attacking it with multiple Skeletons? During night, it would statistically take 5-6 Skeletons to kill a HI, and a good portion of that group would lose 2/3 of their health (and this is during night!)Try that and note the total damage exchange. HI is indeed expensive, and there won't likely be more than 1-2 of them- but really- you can't expect to directly engage mages and HI, with Skeletons, and not take catastrophic losses. This is of course assuming that the mages are properly positioned and defended.

I know I've been a little hard on Arthur, but I'm fairly sure this wouldn't work on him either. Feel free to try it of course- I'd love to see that matchup. 8)
I will not tell you my corner / where threads don't get locked because of mostly no reason /
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Noy
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Post by Noy »

telly wrote:The loyalist's units aren't as strong as they look. Just attack with skeletons and corpses, while you steal all their villages at the sides with bats. Heavy infantry even isn't really a problem as its too expensive and slow and has low defence. Even if they beat back your skeletons, you can just recruit adepts or ghosts to finish them off.
No, I think if there is a problem with the loyalist is that the faction absolutely requires correct purchasing. The Knalgans are probably the easiest. I don;t think the Loys are comparatively slower. They certainly have more useful scout units. The horseman and Cavalry are both useful against the Undead... Cavalry has excellent resistances and the horseman can be used as an adept/bat killer. Sure HI are slower, but given their extraordinary resistances and that the Undead do not have any fire units (cold is not as effective as fire), they are extremely powerful vs the undead, as is the mage. The situation I believe is balanced as is.
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Post by Tux2B »

Noy wrote:(cold is not as effective as fire)
Except if it is used against drakes.
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Post by Elvish_Pillager »

Noy wrote:Sure HI are slower, but given their extraordinary resistances and that the Undead do not have any fire units (cold is not as effective as fire), they are extremely powerful vs the undead, as is the mage. The situation I believe is balanced as is.
Armoredfoot resistance vs. Fire: -10%
Armoredfoot resistance vs. Cold: -20%

I agree though, between HI and Mages, the undead have no extraordinary advantage over Loyalists.
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Noy
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Post by Noy »

Elvish Pillager wrote:
Noy wrote:Sure HI are slower, but given their extraordinary resistances and that the Undead do not have any fire units (cold is not as effective as fire), they are extremely powerful vs the undead, as is the mage. The situation I believe is balanced as is.
Armoredfoot resistance vs. Fire: -10%
Armoredfoot resistance vs. Cold: -20%

I agree though, between HI and Mages, the undead have no extraordinary advantage over Loyalists.
Whoops. I was thinking about the Wose, not the HI... (being units with similar unit roles for their respective factions.)
I suspect having one foot in the past is the best way to understand the present.

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NightBlade
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Post by NightBlade »

armouredfoot resistance? what is that? a new type of resistanec? sorry i've been away.
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Elvish_Pillager
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Post by Elvish_Pillager »

NightBlade wrote:armouredfoot resistance? what is that? a new type of resistanec? sorry i've been away.
Armoredfoot is a movetype: a list of resistances, defenses, and move-costs that it part of a unit definition.
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JoeDuncan
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Post by JoeDuncan »

One problem I've noticed with the Undead faction in player vs. AI multiplayer games, is that their fast units are horribly underpowered for the cost.

All the other factions have tougher and faster advance units.

Bats can move 8 over any terrain, but the can't defend your advance holdings, so these fall easily to the advance enemy units.

Ghosts can move 7, but have problems with water. They can defend your advance holdings better than bats, but still tend to fall before your reinforcements can arrive, and they cost 20 gold!

Compare this with say Wolf Riders, Gryphon Riders, Horsemen or Cavalry, they all move 8 and can defend their advance holdings. Gryphon Riders are by far the best, they're tough, and move 8 over any terrain. And they only cost 4 more gold than a ghost?

Even the Elf Riders are much better than either Bats or Ghosts. They move 10 over most terrain, and only cost 18! They're not very good for defending against most units, but they are still capable of beating ghosts and bats.

The Orcs get the best deal with the Wolf Riders though. For only 17 gold, you get a tough, fast unit that can hold your advance villages until reinforcements arrive to take care of any archers your enemy is scrambling to take out your riders.

Whenever I have played with the Undead against the AI, I've found it tough to launch a blitz invasion. For the early game, I inevitably end up defending my borders and repelling invasions rather than making them myself.

For MP anyways, ghosts should be cheaper or faster or bats tougher.
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