Someone dare to beat me with an undead

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Doc Paterson
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Post by Doc Paterson »

Cuyo Quiz wrote:Touché :cry: ?
What?
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Doc Paterson
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Re: Someone dare to beat me with an undead

Post by Doc Paterson »

yeeha wrote: opponent doesnt have to use complex tactics, only units with fire, impact & holy.There is no way around that tactical problem so this faction cant be mastered at all angles.
What can I say, other than that your understanding of the game is weak at best. It's not that simple, and I feel no need to spend time arguing or explaining.
I will not tell you my corner / where threads don't get locked because of mostly no reason /
because I don't want your hostile disease / to spread all over the world.
I prefer that corner to remain hidden /
without your noses.
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Tippsey
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Post by Tippsey »

Actually almost any complex tactic can be summed up as easy as that. It's sad that all masters wish to belive that things can't be simplified to a few sentences. As for his understanding of the undead the argument does lead there quick. When one says only a master can play an undead correctly it means they need complex strategies to stand a chance to win. Nowthe one thing noone has said is does it take a master to win at all, or just against noobs. Because if it takes a master to beat noobs then well that's not a good sign for this faction. Though this question can't be answered till it's figured in how well the new changes will go. The archer was pumped to useable levels so the faction may be finnally somewhat balanced.
May the drakes bloody kill you all.
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Elvish_Pillager
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Post by Elvish_Pillager »

Tippsey wrote:Actually almost any complex tactic can be summed up as easy as that.
Nope. All is integrated with tactics, and tactics have nigh-infinite implications.


...in any case...


I find that Undead aren't particularly handicapped against any Default faction. They have clear superiority over the Rebels, using mostly Skeletons and also Ghouls or Skeleton Archers depending on enemy recruits. Against Loyalists, each faction's unit has a nemesis in the other faction, so it has a lot to do with time of day and recruit choices, but is not exactly skewed. Against Drakes they have the Dark Adept; against Knalgans they have the Ghost. And Northerners are a nuisance with their Troll Whelps and Orcish Archers, but Dark Adepts are pretty good against both.

The biggest weakness I've noticed in undead is that they *cannot* fight in the daylight. They can beat anything at night, but during the day, even if they are fighting against neutral forces, they get pounded even more than Orcs or Criminals do. I'm not sure why this is.
It's all fun and games until someone loses a lawsuit. Oh, and by the way, sending me private messages won't work. :/ If you must contact me, there's an e-mail address listed on the website in my profile.
Noy
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Post by Noy »

Tippsey wrote:Actually almost any complex tactic can be summed up as easy as that. It's sad that all masters wish to belive that things can't be simplified to a few sentences. As for his understanding of the undead the argument does lead there quick. When one says only a master can play an undead correctly it means they need complex strategies to stand a chance to win. Nowthe one thing noone has said is does it take a master to win at all, or just against noobs. Because if it takes a master to beat noobs then well that's not a good sign for this faction. Though this question can't be answered till it's figured in how well the new changes will go. The archer was pumped to useable levels so the faction may be finnally somewhat balanced.
No, thats completely not true. All he did was make some vague statements that didn't address really anything or address the real nuances in the game. And YOU tippsey are particluarly guilty of this, making sweeping generalizations about the game without anything of substace. I rip on Pillager alot for what he says, but at least he backs up alot of his comments with some sort of proof. It may not be right but at least I can say why his is wrong. you and many other people do this, and when people come and bring you detailed points you make some shallow
analysis and believe this is proof. It isn't.

What do I mean about nuance? For one Yeeha didn't note what units possess fire or impact, which is vitally important for understanding why they are balanced. Of the five possible factions two don't have very effective fire abilities (Knalgans+Notherners). Of the other three there are the drakes, rebels and loyalists. Now the Drakes require a completely different counter, the corpse/DA strategy. That leaves the Loyalists and Rebels. Now Rebels are the easier of the two because their main strategy is usually the Wose/mage combo. however the wose is somewhat vulnerable to blade attacks, so its not as bad as Loys and the HI. Thats why we increased the power on the ghoul so that it could operate as an effective counter to the HI. We upped its damage, and made it neutral against fire. So now it not only does it poision, it does effective damage too. ITs really useful as a rearguard during the day weakening units attacking, and screening weaker undead units until the night. You drop one or two in villages or other highly defensable points and let them defend. At night undead units are pound for pound better than any of their counterparts. They deal more damage, and are resistant against most common forms of attack.

The other half of the combinations are Mages. However they are not some mythical undead unit killer. They are expensive and quite weak. two skeletons at night can easily kill one on most terrain. The mage only has 24 HP for a 20 gold unit, and with Skel doing 9-3 at night, its going to skewer a mage pretty quickly with a modicum of luck.

Really the only unit right now that "unbalancing" vs the Undead is the thug. Its too cheap and has too many capabilities. So we are going to decrease its HP for the next version.
I suspect having one foot in the past is the best way to understand the present.

Don Hewitt.
Noy
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Post by Noy »

Elvish Pillager wrote: The biggest weakness I've noticed in undead is that they *cannot* fight in the daylight. They can beat anything at night, but during the day, even if they are fighting against neutral forces, they get pounded even more than Orcs or Criminals do. I'm not sure why this is.

You are completely right pillager, This is the real trick with the faction, one that I think a lot of players miss. The Undead are the most time dependant faction, moreso than the northerners. Many new players don't even get this, and think the "undead are weak" because they get slaughtered in the day. Yes the faction's units have weaknesses, but they aren't that pronounced at night (except impact damage from troll whelps) Its only in the day that they become apparent, and an opposing player can easily exploit them to quickly destroy a battle line. And there is always the tendency at dawn to push your luck a little further and get a few more kills. However this can turn out to be disasterous for any Undead player, when you find that in morning you can't disengage and then get slaughtered wholescale.

This is partly why the ghoul change was implemented. It gives the Undead a decent day defense capability, much like the Orc Grunt does for the northerners. Since the knalgans have neutral units they are immune to this problem. Walking corpses can also be used in this fashion. But really the trick of the undead is to watch the changing cycles of the day and play with them accordingly... which means running in the day and attacking at night. Without understanding that dynamic its very easy to lose with the faction.
I suspect having one foot in the past is the best way to understand the present.

Don Hewitt.
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Doc Paterson
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Post by Doc Paterson »

KO! :P

A little birdie mailed me this match that occurred yesterday.

http://mercury.walagata.com/w/paterson/ ... sus_Undead
I will not tell you my corner / where threads don't get locked because of mostly no reason /
because I don't want your hostile disease / to spread all over the world.
I prefer that corner to remain hidden /
without your noses.
-Nosebane, Sorcerer Supreme
King Arthur
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Post by King Arthur »

Yes, you beat me D.
"Waes-hael! for Lord and Dame! O! merry be their Dole; Drink-hael! in Jesu's name, And fill the tawny bowl."
King Arthur
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Post by Saurian Bibleist »

King Arthur wrote:Yes, you beat me D.
Funny thing is, I don't even consider myself a very good Undead player. The beatdown would be much more severe against an Undead specialist. :twisted:

:idea:
Advice: Tone down the boasting and HIT THE DOJO.

When you've trained for another year, maybe you'll be able to beat an average Undead player.
Take that plank out of your eye.
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Elvish_Pillager
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Post by Elvish_Pillager »

Saurian Bibleist wrote:...average Undead player.
Average is the wrong word.
It's all fun and games until someone loses a lawsuit. Oh, and by the way, sending me private messages won't work. :/ If you must contact me, there's an e-mail address listed on the website in my profile.
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Post by King Arthur »

I'm not good in charge, I surely will beat you in another map.
"Waes-hael! for Lord and Dame! O! merry be their Dole; Drink-hael! in Jesu's name, And fill the tawny bowl."
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Doc Paterson
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Post by Doc Paterson »

King Arthur wrote:I'm not good in charge, I surely will beat you in another map.
Sorry to say this, but if you're not good on Charge (the most popular and played map on the multiplayer server) you're not likely that good in general.

And really-

I've seen you play. A lot of people here have seen you play.

Where in the world are these delusions of grandeur coming from?
I will not tell you my corner / where threads don't get locked because of mostly no reason /
because I don't want your hostile disease / to spread all over the world.
I prefer that corner to remain hidden /
without your noses.
-Nosebane, Sorcerer Supreme
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Post by Saurian Bibleist »

King Arthur wrote:I'm not good in charge, I surely will beat you in another map.
That's excellent. Here's what we'll do. We'll play on "Meteor Lake." Good-sized map with a little bit of everything. If you lose, you MUST change your signature to "I am a joke." If you're confident of victory, this should be no problem.

These are the stipulations.

Do you accept?

I would again use my worst faction.
Take that plank out of your eye.
telly
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Post by telly »

To be fair to Arthur, charge is one of the worst maps for loyalists.
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Doc Paterson
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Post by Doc Paterson »

telly wrote:To be fair to Arthur, charge is one of the worst maps for loyalists.
And to be fair to Bibleist, it's worse for Undead.

(Who here has seen Arthur recruit all Fencers against Drakes? He really is more than a little bit clueless, and is lightyears away from the level of play that he presumes to inhabit.)
I will not tell you my corner / where threads don't get locked because of mostly no reason /
because I don't want your hostile disease / to spread all over the world.
I prefer that corner to remain hidden /
without your noses.
-Nosebane, Sorcerer Supreme
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