Multiplayer balance changes for 1.15

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In your opinion, what change(s) should be made in 1.15 development cycle?

Leaders with 6 MP get slow trait (-1MP, +5% HP)
12
10%
Red Mage, White Mage and Trapper removed from the random leaders pool
7
6%
Ghost gold 20 -> 19
13
11%
Bat no intelligent trait
8
7%
Merman Hunter HP 30 -> 32
14
12%
Wose cold resistance 10% -> 0%
15
13%
Ulfserker arcane resistance 10% -> 0%
11
9%
Dwarvish Guardsman gold 19 -> 18
14
12%
Spearman ranged 6x1 -> 5x1
12
10%
Heavy Infantry gold 19 -> 18
13
11%
 
Total votes: 119

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sergey
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Multiplayer balance changes for 1.15

Post by sergey »

Hi everyone. I would like to propose balance changes that are based on those parts of the Ladder Era that got positive feedback, on similar topic for 1.13 and I have my own proposal, would be glad to hear your feedback about it. The idea is to mitigate faction balancing issues mentioned here and also shown in this statistics. Namely:
Knalgans > Undead (high)
Drakes > Knalgans (medium)
Loyalists > Knalgans (medium)
Knalgans > Rebels (medium)
Rebels > Undead (low)

6MP Leaders have a lot of balancing issues, so giving them all slow trait will help normalize this. This is similar to how 4MP leaders get quick trait in the Default Era. Red Mage and White Mage are removed as the best leaders, Trapper is removed as the worst.

Ghosts are too costly for the vital matchup vs Knalgans. With the nerf to Ulf's Arcane Resist the Ghost will become a better counter to them, which is important since Ulfs are the hard counter to Dark Adepts.

Bats – when the feral trait was introduced bats average HP was lowered. Removing intelligent trait will slightly increase average bat HP.

Wose change is to help with Rebels vs Undead. Resist as is means 2 Dark Adepts can go 3/4 and a Skeleton go 2/3 and the wose still has 1 HP. Without 10% cold resistance:
Each cold hit of Dark Adept at any time deals +1 damage
Each ranged hit of Ghost at night deals +1 damage, no changes at other TOD
Each ranged hit of Saurian Augur at day deals +1 damage, no changes at other TOD

Merman Hunters are far too squishy against Gryphons. strong/resil hunters are 36 hps aka die to 3 hits from non-strong gryphons. with 2 more hps that means intelligent/resilient and strong/resilient would have 37 and 38 hps and not able to die so easily to non strong Gryphons. These changes will help balance out the Rebels vs Knalgans matchup.

Dwarvish Ulfserker arcane resistance change will help in Undead vs Knalgans as Ghost will become better counter to Ulf. With that change Ghost’s melee hit will deal +1 damage during night, no changes at other TOD. Ladder Era had -20% arcane res for Ulf, but it was said by several players as too much. I took the middle value 0% between Default Era and Ladder Era, which actually works the same as -10%.

Dwarvish Guardsman gold change is to help in Knalgans vs Drakes and vs Loyalists. I haven’t heard this idea before, but here are my arguments. Loyalist’s cavalry and horseman and drakes have blade resistance and pierce vulnerability. Saurians are opposite, however you will still use more drakes than saurians in this matchup. Guardsman is ineffective against Undead, so this change will not affect Knalgans vs Undead.

Spearman having a 6x1 attack took advantage of units with negative piercing resist too much. This will improve balance in Loyalists vs Drakes, as Spearman are way too cheap and effective vs Drakes.

Heavy Infantry change is rather debatable. It will make Loyalists better against Undead, but that isn’t something that should be fixed. In this comment Velensk said “HI have the price they do, mostly because of the knalgan match”. Lowering their price will not help in Knalgans matchup too. However, I heard many times that HI is used so rarely because of its bad movement (both MP and movement cost) and high cost, so making it cheaper can make the game more varied. 17 gold HI got the most votes in 1.13 topic, and I am proposing 18 gold in this one.
Last edited by sergey on March 31st, 2020, 10:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Author of SP scenario Dragon Fight and SP campaign Captured by a Nightmare.
Created The Rise of Wesnoth (alternative mechanics) version of the mainline campaign.
Dauntless
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Re: Multiplayer balance changes for 1.15

Post by Dauntless »

Hi there, happy to vote. One comment regarding the merman hunter. I agree with the HP buff but would not combine it with the 60% def, at least not in one go. Both changes together would make the merm really strong vs naga and moderately vs merman fighter, which I am not sure is the goal.
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sergey
Posts: 473
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Re: Multiplayer balance changes for 1.15

Post by sergey »

Hey Dauntless, happy to see you voted. Removed the deep water 60% merman hunter buff according to your comment.
Author of SP scenario Dragon Fight and SP campaign Captured by a Nightmare.
Created The Rise of Wesnoth (alternative mechanics) version of the mainline campaign.
matto
Posts: 59
Joined: November 4th, 2018, 4:21 pm

Re: Multiplayer balance changes for 1.15

Post by matto »

BUFF_HEAVY_INFANTRY
Teotl
Posts: 6
Joined: February 2nd, 2020, 7:45 pm

Re: Multiplayer balance changes for 1.15

Post by Teotl »

I am curious as to way the lieutenant was not mentioned as one of the best 6mp leaders. I'm not the best at pvp, I would not even call my self good so take what I say with a grain of salt. Ever since I've started the lieutenant leader stood out as incredibly strong. The abitily to just boost attacks and then run back to your keep is simply incredible and attacking one defending is notably harder then facing down other leaders (although white mage is difficult too). Getting one in the mirror match just feels like the game is handing you over the win if your opponent rolls a non abitily leader.

To be fair Lieutenant was nerfed in the past so it's worse at fighting, but the leadership and speed are it's best attributes and those were not touched (if I'm remembering correctly). Other leader ship units are slower, but I feel the same way about them. Having an abitily on your leader is usually going to be much better then not having one, since your leader is not going to be fighting a lot. So i'm wondering, what if we removed every leader who has an abitily? Maybe thats an extreme solution to the problem but coming from a more casual player who mostly plays campaigns, personally I would rather see them removed from the pool rather then nerfed.

As for the individual balance changes.

The slow trait is a great idea, I agree with everything you said about it.

Axing the human mages is also a good idea, they are significantly stronger then almost every leader. But I don't like removing trapper, while its the weakest leader I don't see why it needs to be removed instead of just buffed. It would indirectly buff poacher though, so perhaps increasing the XP required to level one way also be a good idea.

Ghost change is the best idea here, undead need these guys for dwarfs and scouting but the massive cost hurts them a lot. buffing ghost is a great way to improve undead as a whole, which is needed since they are one of the worst preforming factions right now.

Bat no intelligent would do it's intended purpose of buffing the unit slightly which would help with undead's scouting issues.

Merman hunter is another buff thats needed, it's arguably the worst unit in default right now and the lack of a good water scout is an exploitable flaw with rebels.

nerfing resistances of Wose and ulf makes sense to me as well.

Dwarfish guard'sman buff is the one change here I disagree with. I don't think the knalgans need help vs loyalists or drakes, I think those match ups are fairly balanced and buffing the guardsman could tilt the dunefolk match up. I know the dunefolk are unfinished but I don't think excluding them from discussion should be done ether, right now the dunes struggle a bit vs dwarfs and don't have much to break guardsman. If we do want to lower the gold cost, then maybe slightly lower the HP to go with it by about 1-3 points.

Spearman nerf is an incredible idea, these guys are just annoying and can almost solo drakes since they are so spamable.

Heavy infantry man buff I agree with but I think 17g would be better then 18. It's not too difficult to outmaneuver these guys and are very weak to ranged making them a useless recruit most of the time. To be fair 17g change might make them a bit to much on smaller maps like Isar though, if thats to much of a problem then 18 gold is fine I guess.
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sergey
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Re: Multiplayer balance changes for 1.15

Post by sergey »

Hi, thanks for your comments.

Regarding lieutenant. I like that the unit has 6MP which is very useful in singleplayer. I heard many positive and no negative feedbacks about slow trait for 6MP leaders, so that will help balancing lieutenant as well.

Knalgans are excellent on small maps like Isar and don't need a buff against Loyalists or Drakes there. But majority of the maps are larger and it was said by many players they need a buff. I can assure you that Dunefok balance will be taken into account, since people who reworked Dunefolk will review this thread and hopefully came up with something for the other factions too.
Author of SP scenario Dragon Fight and SP campaign Captured by a Nightmare.
Created The Rise of Wesnoth (alternative mechanics) version of the mainline campaign.
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Poison
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Re: Multiplayer balance changes for 1.15

Post by Poison »

What about the other changes? Like footpad melee that's huge. Why aren't they in the poll?
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sergey
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Re: Multiplayer balance changes for 1.15

Post by sergey »

I didn't include changes that got negative feedback. Footpad change (melee impact 4x2 -> blade 5x2) makes him much more dangerous vs assassin (-30% blade, -20% impact resistance), especially at night. Assassin is a key Northerner unit vs Knalgans, so I didn't included this change.
Author of SP scenario Dragon Fight and SP campaign Captured by a Nightmare.
Created The Rise of Wesnoth (alternative mechanics) version of the mainline campaign.
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Poison
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Re: Multiplayer balance changes for 1.15

Post by Poison »

And the hardy trait?
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sergey
Posts: 473
Joined: January 9th, 2015, 9:25 pm

Re: Multiplayer balance changes for 1.15

Post by sergey »

People also disliked it. And they liked the healthy trait which was proposed for removal. The main idea was to reduce different trait variations to increase chance of getting quick trait. Perhaps dwarfs became owerpovered against poison, since poison is a good way to deal with dwarves on a good terrain. So the feedback was basically "hardy is bad, healthy is good, there is enough quick dwarves and even non-quick are fine" :lol:
Author of SP scenario Dragon Fight and SP campaign Captured by a Nightmare.
Created The Rise of Wesnoth (alternative mechanics) version of the mainline campaign.
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