Dunefolk Rework - Changes In Unit Lines & Base Units

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ghype
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Changes In Unit Lines & Base Units

Post by ghype »

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
April 5th, 2019, 12:28 pm
The_Gnat wrote:
April 5th, 2019, 6:07 am
I would avoid a single-strike attack for the many aforementioned reasons by which the Piercer was removed from the faction
Personally I think single-strike makes a lot of sense for a shield bash, and if the unit is well-armoured, the retaliation might not be so bad... but if people would prefer two strikes, I guess that's fine too.
same goes also for the old one-striked shield bash with. really no one used it. like ever.
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Changes In Unit Lines & Base Units

Post by Xalzar »

The_Gnat wrote:
April 5th, 2019, 6:07 am
I would avoid a single-strike attack for the many aforementioned reasons by which the Piercer was removed from the faction
I was going to defend the single-strike attack since marskman alleviates the inconsistency of one-hit attacks (I had the post written and all), but then I double-checked the Blademaster (which is the lv3 unit we are discussing to add the special to at this point) and saw that it has 3 attacks, so the marksman attack could have 2 strikes and still have less hits than the normal one. :whistle:

I think both solutions (more powerful but less strikes / less powerful but with more strikes) have their merit, but I still think that having more strikes already has the function to garantee more consistent damage on the target, so marksman on top of it becomes a bit redundant; a marskman low-strike attack instead grants more consistency against evasive targets and the low number of strikes garantees that this weapon is not always used, but to weaken those units or finish them off.

I trust the balance team to find the best solution though, whichever is it. It surely needs to be tested.
Last edited by Xalzar on April 5th, 2019, 1:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Changes In Unit Lines & Base Units

Post by ghype »




Here is another update regarding the Swordsman Lv2/Marksman and Cataphract situation.


Swordsman:
As we proposed 4 setups for how to handle this, we remarked that 2 of the options - (1) and (4) - were preferred so we found a way to implement a merge between those two. (1) was for the Swordsman to drop the shield and to give it to the Spearguard so the Swordsman can focus on marksman. As a result of this, each of the Soldier's lv up would have a distinct role. The (4) was to give the lv3 and lv4 two blades, one with marksman and one without. Some of us were concerned that it is not realistic to have two different attack styles from the same blade (mostly because one being marksman and the other not).
So we came up with the idea to not only drop the shield as an attack but also visually and replace it with a 2nd blade. One of them could be shorter and more maneuverable, having two great swords can be highly ineffective in real life combat. We could expand Swordsman lore as it underwent a special training from (may ancient or not) sword fighting techniques which could explain why it not only wields two blade but one of them of greater precision then the other.
Furthermore, we know that the lv4 Warmaster became option and was treated more like a campaign unit, but if we would go with this and the visual rework of two blades, then we could consider to implement the lv4 Warmaster as an advance to the vl4 Bladesmaster.

Here are the final stats for this proposal:
  • Swordsman: 15-2 blade, 12-2 blade marksman
  • Captain: 9-3 blade, leadership
  • Spearguard: 16-2 pierce, 10-3 impact
Note that lv3+ will receive a more precise look and are only approximates.
  • Bladesmaster: 14-3 blade, 15-2 blade marksman
  • Warsmaster: 14-4 blade, 20-2 blade marksman
  • Spearmaster: 23-2 pierce, 15-3 impact

Cataphrakt



For the Cataphrakt we also had a comment stating the the two paths for the lv2 Sunderer wouldn't make sense. So we merged them both into a single, balanced unit. That means that the CTP now wield a (rather weak) bow. Here are the final stats:
  • Lv2 Sunderer, 9-3m, 4-3r
  • Lv3 Cataphract, 14-3m, 10-3m charge, 5-3r


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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Changes In Unit Lines & Base Units

Post by Celtic_Minstrel »

ghype wrote:
April 6th, 2019, 5:34 pm
Some of us were concerned that it is not realistic to have two different attack styles from the same blade (mostly because one being marksman and the other not).
Um. What? Why on earth would that be a problem? A blade can be used in different ways, and conceivably the same blade could be used in attacks of varying precision. I don't see any problem with the same blade being used for a marksman attack and a non-marksman attack.

Furthermore, I would expect a dual-wielder to be using both weapons for most of their attacks, rather than one weapon for one attack and the other for a different attack. There could be some attacks that only use one of the weapons, of course, but...

-----

Anyway, I don't see any obvious problems with the new proposals.
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Xalzar
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Changes In Unit Lines & Base Units

Post by Xalzar »

ghype wrote:
April 6th, 2019, 5:34 pm
Swordsman: 15-2 blade, 12-2 blade marksman
Bladesmaster: 14-3 blade, 15-2 blade marksman
Uhm...what? Is it right that the level 2 has more damage-per-strike than the level 3? I'd suggest to set the Swordsman attack to 14-2 if we fear to make the Bladesmaster too strong. So at least the damage is preserved.
ghype wrote:
April 6th, 2019, 5:34 pm
Spearguard: 16-2 pierce, 10-3 impact
Spearmaster: 23-2 pierce, 15-3 impact
The Spearguard shield attack is more powerful than I thought, it has become a real optional attack (also, it seems now superior to the Swordsman line - don't know if it's intentional). Interesting. Is it available on offense?
ghype wrote:
April 6th, 2019, 5:34 pm
Lv2 Sunderer, 9-3m, 4-3r
Lv3 Cataphract, 14-3m, 10-3m charge, 5-3r
Again, this cannot do. A level-up unit cannot have a weaker attack than its precedessor.
The Lv1 has: 5-2m (not relevant), 5-3r
The others should be, if we want a weak bow:
Lv2: 9-3m, 6-3r
Lv3: 14-3m, 7-3r (the lv1 Bowman of the Loyalists has 6-3, so it's slightly better than a lv1! It's weak. Maybe consider giving the Marauder line a little more powerful bow if you want, like 8-3)
Then, I saw the cold resistance drop. I don't think an advancement should lose resistances. Instead it's fine for the movement (there are precedents in mainline and it makes sense). Also, about the resistances of both the Marauder branch and the Cataphract branch. Maybe they should be raised only on the level 2 (respectively), and remain the same for the level 3. It's already a bit daunting for the player to handle the three different advancement branches and all their different roles and weapons, a bit more consistency on the (usually more subtle) resistances wouldn't hurt (see Horseman advances).

Nice work though! I hope I'm not being too annoying. :oops:
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Changes In Unit Lines & Base Units

Post by Hejnewar »

Xalzar wrote:
April 6th, 2019, 10:47 pm
ghype wrote:
April 6th, 2019, 5:34 pm
Swordsman: 15-2 blade, 12-2 blade marksman
Bladesmaster: 14-3 blade, 15-2 blade marksman
Uhm...what? Is it right that the level 2 has more damage-per-strike than the level 3? I'd suggest to set the Swordsman attack to 14-2 if we fear to make the Bladesmaster too strong. So at least the damage is preserved.

ghype wrote:
April 6th, 2019, 5:34 pm
Lv2 Sunderer, 9-3m, 4-3r
Lv3 Cataphract, 14-3m, 10-3m charge, 5-3r
Again, this cannot do. A level-up unit cannot have a weaker attack than its precedessor.
Why it cannot do? We have in mainline units that lose damage per strike with lvl up. Examples: Elvish Scout L2->L3 or Merman Netcaster L2->L3.
Xalzar wrote:
April 6th, 2019, 10:47 pm
ghype wrote:
April 6th, 2019, 5:34 pm
Spearguard: 16-2 pierce, 10-3 impact
Spearmaster: 23-2 pierce, 15-3 impact
The Spearguard shield attack is more powerful than I thought, it has become a real optional attack (also, it seems now superior to the Swordsman line - don't know if it's intentional). Interesting. Is it available on offense?
Yes it is.
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Changes In Unit Lines & Base Units

Post by ghype »

Xalzar wrote:
April 6th, 2019, 10:47 pm
ghype wrote:
April 6th, 2019, 5:34 pm
Spearguard: 16-2 pierce, 10-3 impact
Spearmaster: 23-2 pierce, 15-3 impact
The Spearguard shield attack is more powerful than I thought, it has become a real optional attack (also, it seems now superior to the Swordsman line - don't know if it's intentional). Interesting. Is it available on offense?
We wanted clearly differentiated roles for each lv ups. The Swordsman will be stronger in match-ups (Elves/Dwarfs) where the Spearguard lacks and vice versa (UD/Loy).
Xalzar wrote:
April 6th, 2019, 10:47 pm
ghype wrote:
April 6th, 2019, 5:34 pm
Lv2 Sunderer, 9-3m, 4-3r
Lv3 Cataphract, 14-3m, 10-3m charge, 5-3r
Again, this cannot do. A level-up unit cannot have a weaker attack than its precedessor.
I though that wasn't RIPLD as long as other lv ups maintain the path of the lv1. Is it?
If thats the case then we should go with this 5-3 bow and 6-3 bow or to make it even more interesting, to keep the 5-3 ranged through out all advancements?
Thoughts?
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Changes In Unit Lines & Base Units

Post by Xalzar »

ghype wrote:
April 7th, 2019, 7:25 am
I though that wasn't RIPLD as long as other lv ups maintain the path of the lv1. Is it?
I thought RIPLD was considered on all levels, but...
Hejnewar wrote:
April 6th, 2019, 11:59 pm
We have in mainline units that lose damage per strike with lvl up. Examples: Elvish Scout L2->L3 or Merman Netcaster L2->L3.
...apparently that it's a thing in mainline. Perhaps it's ok to lose damage per strike if the sum of the damage is higher than before? :hmm:
Can someone who knows for certain about this matter settle this?

The Sunderer bow though must be higher than 4-3, that's obvious.
ghype wrote:
April 7th, 2019, 7:25 am
If thats the case then we should go with this 5-3 bow and 6-3 bow or to make it even more interesting, to keep the 5-3 ranged through out all advancements?
Thoughts?
I'm fine with keeping 5-3 for the whole Cataphract branch.
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Changes In Unit Lines & Base Units

Post by Hejnewar »

Some units like Spearman are losing thier ranged attack entirely and noone has any problems with that. And if people would have less problems with removal of attack that with having it deal lower damage I don't even know what to say. Besides I don't see a point of this discussion because this is not even main lvl up and this is preserved in other lvl ups.
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Changes In Unit Lines & Base Units

Post by Celtic_Minstrel »

Xalzar wrote:
April 6th, 2019, 10:47 pm
ghype wrote:
April 6th, 2019, 5:34 pm
Spearguard: 16-2 pierce, 10-3 impact
Spearmaster: 23-2 pierce, 15-3 impact
The Spearguard shield attack is more powerful than I thought, it has become a real optional attack (also, it seems now superior to the Swordsman line - don't know if it's intentional). Interesting. Is it available on offense?
I'd reduce the shield bash to 2 strikes, actually – a shield bash strikes me as a slow attack, so more than 2 strikes doesn't really suit it. (This is a lore-based argument, obviously.)
Xalzar wrote:
April 6th, 2019, 10:47 pm
ghype wrote:
April 6th, 2019, 5:34 pm
Lv2 Sunderer, 9-3m, 4-3r
Lv3 Cataphract, 14-3m, 10-3m charge, 5-3r
Again, this cannot do. A level-up unit cannot have a weaker attack than its precedessor.
If you mean the L1 to the Sunderer, then you're wrong. As long as there's something to make up for the weaker attack, and there's an alternate level up that doesn't get a weaker attack (which I'm pretty sure there is already), it's fine for the attack to be weaker. (Though probably preferable for it to stay equal rather than actually getting weaker.)

Your actual argument for fixing this sounds fine to me, though.

I see others were also confused by this. The two cited cases of damage per strike being reduced on level-up both increase the maximum possible damage, so I'm guessing that's why it's acceptable. However, those cited cases are not branching advancement lines, either; when you have branching advancements, there's more leeway to weaken things on auxiliary branches as long as something else is improved to somewhat balance it.
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Changes In Unit Lines & Base Units

Post by The_Gnat »

@celtic - the only problem with giving the Shield Guard a 2 strike attack is that the attacks will be very similar, it would be like 16-2 pierce 14-2 impact or something. But that isn't a major issue, what do other people think?

@xalzar - yes I agree it would make sense for the sunderer line to not lose its bow. It doesn't have to be very powerful, but it would make more sense for the unit line to not suddenly lose its bow, which seems to be the key feature of these units. The sudden gaining of a lance does seem slightly odd but perhaps explainable, but I would rather the weapons not shift too much. Also as a side note it would make it more unique compared to the Grand Knight.
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Changes In Unit Lines & Base Units

Post by ghype »

A skilled soldier (almost in every culture) should be able to shoot arrows with a bow in one way and another. A weak 5-3 bow for a lv2 and lv3 mounted unit doesn't seem to far fetched, no matter how much armour it wears.

The Dragonier, not only heavily armoured with a shield, but also wield a crossbow which in itself is not a problem. Just imagine how long it takes to reload it on a moving horse (hence the one strike). So a weaker but with more strikes bow should be plausible.
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Changes In Unit Lines & Base Units

Post by Spixi »

Hello again,

as I see, the Dunefolk faction has gotten major improvements during the last years. A long time ago, I simplified the Hornshark Island multiplayer map lua code and noted, that it is missing a unit set for the Dunefolk. Doc Paterson was working on a unit set, but it only contains monsters and is used for any non-standard faction. I think, it would be great, if we could make use of the real Dunefolk units soon.
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Changes In Unit Lines & Base Units

Post by The_Gnat »

Spixi wrote:
April 14th, 2019, 8:55 pm
Hello again,

as I see, the Dunefolk faction has gotten major improvements during the last years. A long time ago, I simplified the Hornshark Island multiplayer map lua code and noted, that it is missing a unit set for the Dunefolk. Doc Paterson was working on a unit set, but it only contains monsters and is used for any non-standard faction. I think, it would be great, if we could make use of the real Dunefolk units soon.
Hello. :)

Yes the DF faction has gotten a major overhaul in both balance and artwork. I am not familiar with the Hornshark Island lua code but once the faction is fully complete it would be great to get it being used in scenarios and hopefully even a campaign at some point!

We are almost complete with our rework and will then be looking into adding it to mainline in which case it could be used by any map or add-on. :)
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Changes In Unit Lines & Base Units

Post by Pentarctagon »

The_Gnat wrote:
April 17th, 2019, 1:16 am
We are almost complete with our rework and will then be looking into adding it to mainline in which case it could be used by any map or add-on. :)
I look forward to it :)
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