Balancing: Dwarvish Guardsmen

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Kalis
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Balancing: Dwarvish Guardsmen

Post by Kalis »

Now this is definitely a MP balancing issue.
Essentially... guardsmen are useless. I'll try to lay it out in a clear format, unlike the shaman thread.

Problems:
1. Stalwart and Sentinel Upgrades are complete crap.
2. Cost vs effectiveness is horrendous.

Point #1:
Stalwarts: 48hp, 7-3 melee, 8-1 ranged.
Sentinel: 56hp, 9-3 melee, 11-2 ranged.
Just do a comparison to the Dwarven Fighter Branch. They hit much weaker, and have less hp.

Why the low HP boost? They began with higher HP at tier1. Sure they have that steadfast skill, but the combination of weak attack and low scaling hp makes them useless...
Also, why is it only an 8-1 ranged attack for a tier 2? At the very least, it should be like 7-2!
Finally the melee attack. Hit like a tier1 fighter?

The Stalwarts and Sentinels desperately need adjusting.
Currently, the Stalwart is barely better than a strong/resilient dwarven fighter. Oh sure it does have the Steadfast ability and a 1-shot low damage range attack. But... well... a single shot isn't much, and steadfast doesn't mean much either. since you can always choose to target another unit.

One units's survivability sitting around hoping for melee attacks is a bit sketchy. If I see guardsmen, out comes the mages/adepts/whatever!

Point 2:
Guardsman: 42hp, 5-3 melee, 5-1 ranged.

Honestly, they're just not worth the gold cost of 19.
a) That melee attack is pathetic, and doesn't even have firststrike to potentially avoid damage!
b) You really can't give them experience because leveled Guardsmen are just pathetic (point 1).
c) they have lower chance to block on hills/mountains than dwarven fighters (50/60 as opposed to 60/70).

Basically, anytime I have 19 gold, I'd rather have a ulfserker which can be used to finish off enemy troops and moves at 5 rather than 4. Or a 16 gold fighters which is better than guardsmen due to versatility (have impact and blade attack) and higher damage damage. The only unit that guardsmen are better vs are cavalry, and cavalry run circles around guardsmen so u never get to engage them (if playing someone good).

Suggestions:
My personal preference is to increase their stats so they're worth that 19 gold.
First, give them a higher defense than fighters on grass (40%) and villages (60% rather than 50%), Also, their hills and mountains defense needs to be like fighters (60/70 rather than the 50/60 they currently have). Finally, probably make their forest defense 40% as well.

Second, make their attacks more balanced.
5-3, 5-2 rather than 5-3, 5-1.
Stelwarts would probably need to be something like 8-3 or 6-4 / 7-2
Sentinels don't really matter since they would never appear in MP :)
Velensk
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Post by Velensk »

First of all my post is going to be confusing because I both agree and disagree with the suggestion

Gaurdsman are one of those units where their amount of hp is deceptive, assuming you are facing a enemy with a standard (impact,blade,pierce) weapon a gaurdsman effectivly has 40% resistance because you are probably not (or at least it is not a good idea) to attack the enemy with the gaurds man.

Example (no time of day) Spearman vs gaurdsman If the gaurdsmand attacks then you have 6-3 vs 5-3 but if the spearman attacks you have 4-3 vs 5-3.

Gaurdsman are a unit that is hard to remove in an offecive drive They are usefull they are probably worth 19 gold depending on the enemy... I agree that when you upgrade them they don't seem to improve as much as the fighter line dose when it upgrades, though they cost the same amount to upgrade. The problem is that a stalwart or a sentimental on a mountain is a real pain to remove with any standard weapons, and tough even with magical ones. Giving them more HP would make them even harder to kill.

Having said all that my proposal would be thus, make gaurdsman easier to upgrade and/or give them slightly higher attacks I do agree that a upgrade to the ranged attack would be a good idea either way since much of the time I use them to attack that is the attack I use.
telly
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Post by telly »

Guardsmen used to be overpowered but the nerf was too much the other way.

The biggest problem is their defense on villages is only 50% which is too low for a defensive unit even with highish resistances.
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zookeeper
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Post by zookeeper »

I'm not a pro player, but at least an average one, and I dislike guardsmen a lot. Not so much due to the crappy offensive abilities, but because I find steadfast a bit annoying. I find it a bit too small a boost to really be able to rely on it to make any difference.
IB
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Post by IB »

Trust me you dont want it to have 60% def on villages. A strong res guardsman on a village right now is almost impossible to remove.
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Doc Paterson
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Post by Doc Paterson »

I love these threads.
I will not tell you my corner / where threads don't get locked because of mostly no reason /
because I don't want your hostile disease / to spread all over the world.
I prefer that corner to remain hidden /
without your noses.
-Nosebane, Sorcerer Supreme
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zookeeper
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Post by zookeeper »

Doc Paterson wrote:I love these threads.
I knew a MP dev would stop by and dismiss the whole thing with something like that.
whitewater
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Post by whitewater »

Their health points have already been upgraded in trunk...

Dwarvish Guardsman - HP:42 MP:4 XP:47
Dwarvish Stalwart - HP:54 MP:4 XP:85
Dwarvish Sentinel - HP:68 MP:4 XP:100
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Sorrow
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Post by Sorrow »

MmMMmm, wonderful vs the drakes. And nice on certain maps to hold an out-of-the-way village for the whole game without worrying about it.
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Mythological
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Post by Mythological »

Its nice that the HP of the level 2 and 3 got up...otherwise the guards are just fine as they are
Theoretically, love is great
but it is a little bit different in practice.

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F8 Binds...
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Post by F8 Binds... »

Well, let's think with me here- This unit is almost impossible to destroy without the enemy bringing out the heavy artillery- mages and archers. The enemy sure will kill the unit if he gangs up upon it, but he has to expose his units, and that means (especially with elves) that they are easy kills the next turn. What I would like to see is a hp improvement on the higher levels, and a resistance improvement on the L2+L3. I also would like to see 2 ranged strikes on the ranged attack for all levels. Higher melee damage (slight) on the higher levels would be nice as well. My recomendations-

L1 ranged attack 7-2. L2 ranged attack 9-2 L3 ranged attack 12-2
L1 hp remains. L2 has 5 more hp than L2 fighter. L3 has same hp as L3 fighter.
L1 melee remains. L2 melee is 8-3. L3 melee is 11-3
L1 resistances remain. L2 resistances change by +10%. L3 resistances another +10%

I would like to see him as a tank that can survive much better than the steelclad (L2 guardsman, that is) and serves the purpose of a javelineer. Who agrees?
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Blarumyrran
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Post by Blarumyrran »

giving more ranged is not the way, then no good counter would exist for him... except poison, but only 2 races have that on lvl 1.

id suggest price-cheapening.
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Doc Paterson
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Post by Doc Paterson »

whitewater wrote:Their health points have already been upgraded in trunk...

Dwarvish Guardsman - HP:42 MP:4 XP:47
Dwarvish Stalwart - HP:54 MP:4 XP:85
Dwarvish Sentinel - HP:68 MP:4 XP:100
Yep. I hope everyone here was aware of that.
I will not tell you my corner / where threads don't get locked because of mostly no reason /
because I don't want your hostile disease / to spread all over the world.
I prefer that corner to remain hidden /
without your noses.
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Doc Paterson
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Post by Doc Paterson »

zookeeper wrote:
Doc Paterson wrote:I love these threads.
I knew a MP dev would stop by and dismiss the whole thing with something like that.
Here's the visual.
Attachments
Dismiss.jpg
Dismiss.jpg (29.82 KiB) Viewed 2777 times
I will not tell you my corner / where threads don't get locked because of mostly no reason /
because I don't want your hostile disease / to spread all over the world.
I prefer that corner to remain hidden /
without your noses.
-Nosebane, Sorcerer Supreme
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zookeeper
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Post by zookeeper »

Doc Paterson wrote:Here's the visual.
Here's two. I can't quite decide between them, though.

1
2

Image
Image

EDIT: Nah, I think I'd certainly choose 1.
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