Extra drakes

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Soliton
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Post by Soliton »

Lim-Dul wrote: My point is that the argument about the Drakes being able to defeat other factions is not a very strong one - I mean if people list the Drakes as being their least favourite faction and the weakest one for that matter, then this must be true by the rules of a majority vote. =)
On the other hand this game isn't developed by the majority, neither is it's development process a democratic one.
Lim-Dul wrote: It doesn't matter that some pro-players are able to win with them anyway - the majority is dissatisfied with the Drakes, so we should improve them lest they remain an unpopular faction.
Just because 5 or 10 people on this forum express their inability to play Drakes and hence don't like them isn't a good reason to change them.
I would suspect there are some more people playing wesnoth in the world, hence your democracy approach doesn't even have any credibility at all in my eyes.

Also making every faction be easy to play for everybody most likely means making them all the same. I'm sure you can see that that's not going to happen.
Lim-Dul wrote:
Some people seem to think that MP developers are supposed to do that on their own. However that is not the case. I guess we need to clear these misconceptions up some time.
This wasn't actually addressed to the MP Devs. =) It was an answer to Sapient's post.
That wasn't exactly addressed to you either. It's more a general note. :)
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Post by Lim-Dul »

On the other hand this game isn't developed by the majority, neither is it's development process a democratic one.
Well- but one can try to contribute to the game by posting some good ideas. =)
Also making every faction be easy to play for everybody most likely means making them all the same. I'm sure you can see that that's not going to happen.
Well - actually I stressed the fact that adding more units to the Drakes won't necessarily mean them growing stronger. It's just a question of versatility and more options for the player. Maybe changing the way the Drakes are meant to be played isn't the goal to be pursued - but more unit branches would make the faction more appealing and would give it a more "polished" look. =)

Neo mentioned a reason for the "regal" line for the gliders. Not many people recruit gliders and a new branch might change this. E.g. make them stronger in combat (though not stronger than the fighter and clasher branches) but slower than the "mobility" branch for the gliders. This would mean that if a glider survives some battles fore lone villages or sth. - and gliders are kind of the Drake recon units, so things like that are to be expected - he'd be able to work behind the enemy lines more efficiently. (Read: without getting killed no matter what level he is ;-). Knights and Regal Drakes would have e.g. a speed of 7, which would make them faster than Fighters and Clashers. I imagine that it'd be cool to reflect their nice armor that Neo has drawn for them in their stats - e.g. not very damaging attacks, but better resistances and defensive boni. This would allow them to hold their position if necessary (since they build the vanguard of the drake army anyway) without getting killed.

But it's all theory right now. It'd have to be play-tested and we will need the actual sprites for that first. =)

Ah - I've got an idea matching the artwork for the second fighter branch as well. Let's call the two units "Drake Flameseeker" and "Drake Burning Blade" (just for reference). They'd deal less damage than the warrior branch but their MELEE attacks would deal fire damage, which could be useful in some situations. =) How about that? Just an idea.
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Noyga
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Post by Noyga »

Well about the Regal Drake / Drake Knight the problem is those units are not ready, so they won't likely be added in their current state, more work is needed :
* Graphics : the graphics a cool, btw AFAIK we only have a image, the unit are not animated at all ...
* Concept : well we don't have a clear explaination of those drakes characteristics and how they differ from the other gliders. The images show however a unit which seems more melee oriented, probably with better impact melee and armor and thus lower movement but it might be unclear.
* Gameplay impact :
- since the concept is unclear, it is quite difficult to evaluate what does these unit add to the gameplay, they seem quite similar to the other gliders ... How much they will impact the gameplay ?
- as a new unit it should change a the gameplay (if not, it means the new units are useless). As it start at level 2, which are quite common units, it mean that the gameplay changes might be not negligible so it would probably impede the balance.
More precisely having a flying unit with decent impact damages (what these units seems to be) might overpower the drakes versus the undead and thus require some stats changes in a few existing unit.

The first two points makes that these unit is unlikely to be added, but will be probably easily fixed by their author.
Then we will be able to discuss about the third point, at least a more explained concept will help :)

In contrary, the Armageddon drake is ready for inclusion (and might be added soon) :
- The units is fully (and well) animated with decent graphics, comes with cfg with included description.
- The concept is quite clear, it is simply a more powerful Inferno Drake and the description explains quite well the other differences (ie resistances) of the unit from the Inferno Drake.
- As level 4 units are quite rare, this will have a very minor impact on the balance so its inclusion don't require a lot of balancing efforts :)
In normal MP games, level 4 units are rarely seen. In very few campaign (at least no official one) we can recruit drake burner, and ennemies rarely advance to level 4 during a scenario. Furthermore, given the stats of the unit, it would probably not inbalance those campaign much.

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Post by Lim-Dul »

Yeah - the points concernig the other Drakes will be covered. =) I'll make Neo work on them. He, he, he. ^^ (No worries Neo - only if you have time)

And the Armageddon Drake could use a bit more polishing on his animations.

When it comes to his stats - indeed he may not be that overpowered. I mean - his melee attack pretty much sucks in comparison with even some level 2 units - he is lawful, so take him down at night - and as regards his ranged attack - well, don't try this at home or at all kiddos. =)

I'm pretty sure that he can be taken down quite easily by a thinking player (on the other hand he could be defended easily as well, but hell - and if somebody has managed to level up a burner to level 4 he probably is winning big time anyway. ;-)

Neo said he tested the Drake, so he could be in fact included in some test release (SVN?)

P.S. I think though that 98HP may be a bit too steep in comparison to other level 4 units... Although - hmmm - depends on the race - the inferno drake himself has 71 HPs. =)

I'd make him 93HP though - it'd make for a more logical advancement (unless you want the stats to increase in a steeper curve):

Burner -> Fire Drake = +12HP == 42 -> 54
Fire Drake -> Inferno Drake = +17HP (so 12 + 5) == 54 -> 71
Inferno Drake -> Armageddon Drake ?= +22HP? (17 +5) == 71 -> 93

I don't know if that is a huge difference. =)

The ranged damage (12-6 - 72 max) may be OK (since it isn't magical damage), but that'd require a bit of testing. The Great Mage for example does 16-4 (64 max) damage - it being magical of course, but all his other stats are much worse. He also requires more XP to advance to level 4 (220 at level 3). The other units need more XP too - 180 or so. In Neo's .cfg I found the figure of 150XP for an AMLA... So hmm - what would be the XP requirement for the Inferno Drake to advance?

As you can see a bit of tweaking may be necessary.
Last edited by Lim-Dul on March 12th, 2006, 10:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Sapient
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Post by Sapient »

Apparently the Developers I was referring to are less active now, so the concensus may have changed.

If you want to read the old discussions I refer you to these two threads:
*Unit bloat - sanna
*Level 4 for normal units - silene
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Post by Lim-Dul »

Now THESE are some old discussion if we are on the topic. =)

Many things have changed since then (I guess).

Nevertheless the Armageddon Drake should be included IMHO, although he may need some playtesting and tweaking.

He seems a bit too powerful at first glance, but on the other hand he lacks the other level 4 units' specials (different types of magic for the Sylph, powerful magical attacks for the Great Mage and the improved leadership for the Grand Marshal).

I'd love to have him tested alongside the other potential new units for the Drakes - but as we know it all depends on Neo's availability.

P.S. In the LVL 4 unit thread the general concensus seemed to be that 1 level 4 unit for a race with a reason behind it is OK and thematically fits in. Neo came with the idea of a great level 4 Drake line just like Jetryl with the the Sylph line.^^

P.P.S. And in the Unit Bloat thread people agreed that no more level 1 units should be added, but adding new advancements would be nice.

So actually you posted links to two threads that even support Neorice's new units. (When they are finished of course) ^^
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Sapient
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Post by Sapient »

Lim-Dul: I never said I was opposed to these new units. I'm not.

However, there's no point in re-writing history; from Jetryl's and Neorice's posts (and the threads I linked), it's obvious that that there was some opposition from several developers in the past-- most of which is probably in the IRC logs if you really want to find it.

Anyways, it seems irrelevant now except for reference and reflection purposes.
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Post by turin »

The other main consensus about level 4s was that they are not allowed to be simply uber-warriors. A level 4 orcish fighter would be nonsense. Level 4s indicate improved learning and wisdom, not greater strength. The Grand Marshal has the stats of a level 3, it is just that his level 4 leadership (representing his knowledge of tactics) is really powerful. Same goes for the other three non-monster level 4s - they are all mage units, and their non-magical attacks are not anything special.

Now, an argument could be made that the Armageddon Drake falls into the class of "monster" level 4s, like the Fire Dragon and the Yeti. In that case, he makes sense. But if he is not seen as such, he doesn't. He would be equivalent to a level 4 orcish warlord.
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Post by MadMax »

Even if there is a general consensus against the level 4 Armageddon Drake, where has any developer opposed the four other units in this proposal?
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Post by Dragon Master »

as far as I know, no one is actually opposed to these units being added, they just want them balanced so drakes don't suddenly become the super-race. As a drake player (what a surprise) I'd have to say I love the new unit ideas. For one, I like the knight-drake line in the gliders because as an experienced player, I find that suarian skirmishers are just a better pick over the gliders since they cost less and have better defense. I should also say Armageddon drake should be added as in my entire Wesnoth experience I've never seen a unit make it to level 4 unless it started that way, or xp was set to 30%. Drakes are also the only race as far as I know with no level four unit by the way. As long as armageddon drake is balanced enough I say add it. The un-named drakes also look like a good addition, how about Drake fighter-->Drake flamebearer-->Drake fireblade?
I guess they would have melee fire damage and no firebreath, maybe put it a horn ram (impact) as a replacement for firbreath, this coupled with the drake knight line will give drakes and better answer to undead as i find myself constantly being sluaghtered by those bloody necromancers

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Noyga
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Post by Noyga »

About the Armageddon Drake, well we can tweak the stats :

Well IMHO the range damage are OK :
- The Great Mages deal an average of :
Great Mage : 16*4*0.7 = 44.8 damages per round of attack.
- With 60% CTH (which is IHMO an optimistic value, but probably not far from reality)
Armageddon Drake (12-6) @ 60% CTH : 12*6*0.6 = 43.2 damages per round of attack.
So in fact his ranged attack is a little weaker, but close the the Great Mage
It could be however decreased to 11-6 :
Armageddon Drake (11-6) @ 60% CTH : 11*6*0.6 = 39.6 damages per round of attack.
Or even 10-6 :
Armageddon Drake (10-6) @ 60% CTH : 10*6*0.6 = 36 damages per round of attack.
For comparison :
Elvish Sylph : 10*5*0.7= 35 damages per round of attack
My vote would be for 11-6

IMHO his melee damage (15-2) is a little to strong for powerful ranged unit, i'd rather put 13-2 instead (Inferno Drake: 11-2, Fire Drake: 9-2, Drake Burner: 7-2 so it would be also more logical)

About his HP, i have no opinion ... His low defense doesn't help so the current value is probably fine.

About his XP to level from the inferno Drake i think a value like 250 or 300 XP would probably be fine

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Post by Lim-Dul »

Yup - I agree with your analisys Noyga.

11-6 and 10-6 could be tested. 10-6 seems a bit too close to the Sylph (and a Sylph could probably own an Armageddon Drake anyway because of cold damage and 70% defense in forests =) and assumes that you're attacking a unit standing on anaverage terrain - well - but it's always good to assume the worst case scenario. =)

I doubt that one would want to confront the Drake in open field without cover. =)

13-2 Melee is perfect. It even makes sense when we look at the level progression.

HPs - should be playtested. It's true that the Drake wouldn't be able to hide anywhere safe because of his crappy defense boni and he probably wouldn't be able to run away with a movement of 5 either.
Drakes are also the only race as far as I know with no level four unit by the way.
Orks and Dwarves don't have a level 4 unit either. =)
and better answer to undead as i find myself constantly being sluaghtered by those bloody necromancers
Almost all Drakes have Fire Breath which should be fine enough against undead. So I don't know if this is a viable argument. Nevertheless Skeleton Archers are cheaper than e.g. Burners, have better defenses and actually deal piercing damage which the Drakes are prone to in turn. The names sound good though.

I also think that the Drake Knights and Regal Drakes could get impact damage - I mean - look at the sprites - they're holding maces. ^^ (At least the Regal one does =)
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Post by Tippsey »

Hmm I hope testing shows it at11-6 mostly because even though it's damages are around the other level 4 ranged heroes, both of those units have magic. Which well makes them quite a bit more useful. If we went for something like the 10-6 and didn't up the hp much could we perhaps go for marksman on the basis of, either he has learned to be accurate, like the fire dragon, or both his and the fire dragon blasts are just to bulky to dodge.
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Post by Mythological »

I am for the armagedon to be a regular unit. After all why should only loyalists and rebels have level 4 units, that seems a bit unfair. But the armagedon drakes with the stats I know 12-2 melee; 12-6 ranged 91 hp seems a bit to powerful to me . 91 hitpoints seems reasonable for a level 4 drake regarding his poor defense everywhere and weakeness to cold and pierce...but 12-6 does seem a bit too much. And the sylph would own the armagedon, but exploiting it's weakenesses and the armagedon would most certainly own a grand mage for instance, but that doesnt meen the grand mage is underpowerd.

My suggestion would be to follow the line of the advancement path of the drake burner with adding an extra ranged attack and 1 extra damage per ranged attack with 2 extra melee damage
Drake burner 7-2 melee 6-4 ranged
Fire Drake 9-2 melee 7-5 ranged
Inferno Drake 11-2 melee 8-6 ranged
Armagedon Drake 13-2 melee 9-7 ranged


That gives a total of 63 maximum possible ranged damage which is between 10-6 and 11-6 as suggested in the previous posts.


Marksmanship may be good but it is unusual for a unit to get a special in such a high level of an advancement. It would be same like if lieuetenants and generals didnt have leadership but only a unit that is rarely seen in mp grand marshal have, or for the arch mages to get magical attack when they advance into grand mages.
Last edited by Mythological on March 15th, 2006, 12:02 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by SmokemJags »

I'd make him 93HP though - it'd
I haven't been following this thread, and when I saw this skimming through it... ouch.
I'd make the level 2 Fire Drake branch into two different level 3s and end there, no level 4.
He can become the Armageddon, higher damage more hp or the Inferno Drake, lower damage and hp, but has marksmanship.

Or something...
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