Extra drakes

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JW
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Post by JW »

To show the units themselves, I'm temporarily uploading Neo's tree to this thread. Now, I'm not sure that great art should be a justification to add more units, but, well, they're pretty awesome. Currently the lvl 4, and the scout and fighter splits are not in game. Also, the Clasher looks different obviously.

Seriously though...I want to see that Armageddon Drake animated so badly....
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Jetrel
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Post by Jetrel »

I'm not involved in work related to adding units anymore. I'm sick of arguing with people. You want these in? Take it up with our MP monkeys.
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Sapient
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Post by Sapient »

This question doesn't even belong in the Art Forum, Jetryl already gave those units a thumb up in the very thread you linked:
Jetryl wrote: /me Gives a thumbs-up on the "drake knight" and "regal drake", as well as the "armageddon drake". I do expect neo to give them the same animation treatment as was given the armageddon drake (which I should look into getting added to the game).
You should ask the multiplayer devs, but I doubt they want to rehash a four month old argument. In short, these units are great for campaigns, but they would be unbalancing in Multiplayer Default Era which has a more limited philosophy.
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irrevenant
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Post by irrevenant »

I think it would be nice to change the name on the "Drake Knight". Drakes come from an isolated island off the coast of Wesnoth and it'd be nice if their title represented a different lineage. eg. Samurai were effectively knights, but had a different title and culture.

It might be an interesting twist to call them 'False-scaled Drake" and consider them to be dishonourable for their use of armour (outside the Clasher caste).

*EDIT* Don't get me wrong; I think it would be nice to give "Drake Knights" a more "Drakish" name, but I'm happy either way. I'm certainly not going to bicker over it... */EDIT*
Last edited by irrevenant on March 12th, 2006, 8:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by MadMax »

Okay, can a mod move this to Multiplayer Development?

And I don't really see a four-month-old debate. To me, it looks like these units were overlooked four months ago. If there is anything that I've missed, please link to it.

Also, I'd rather not see this be reduced to bickering, or these drakes will probably be overlooked again.
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Noyga
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Post by Noyga »

I'm already using the Drake Armageddon, fully animated in two of my eras :)
Do we have some other frames for the Regal Drake / Drake Knight ?

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Post by Lim-Dul »

In short, these units are great for campaigns, but they would be unbalancing in Multiplayer Default Era which has a more limited philosophy.
OK - let's leave the Armageddon Drake out of this. He was designed with being overpowered in mind and from what I've learned so far by reading the forums the devs are essentially against level 4 units.

When it comes to the 4 other Drakes, that is the Drake Knight and the Regal Drake and the additional branch of the Drake Glider, then it's just a matter of designing balanced stats.

They can't be overpowered per-se cause all we have so far are graphics. The Armageddon Drake could be toned down as well should the devs agree to include a level 4 unit in the Drake faction or simply left out. Or he could be included in a completely new line of Drake units as a level 3 advancement. It's all only a balancing issue which is relatively easy to solve - but to let such wonderful art rot is simply a waste.

My point is that the Drakes could use a bit of new art and new units.
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Neoriceisgood
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Post by Neoriceisgood »

OK - let's leave the Armageddon Drake out of this. He was designed with being overpowered in mind and from what I've learned so far by reading the forums the devs are essentially against level 4 units.

My idea was, the Loyalist can have a level 4 leadership unit; So I really don't see why the "core" drake unit (Say what you want, but the Burners are the best representation of the drakes) can't get a fourth level aswell; it's no different from the Grand Marshall, quite impossible to get due to XP needed; However unlike the Grand Marshall it won't overpower low level units (Concidering level 4 leadership means 200% damage on level 1 units if I am correct.)
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Post by Lim-Dul »

Hmmm - I see your point now. =) Maybe each faction should have one (not more) level 4 unit as a kind of "hero unit". E.g. only one can exist (though I really doubt that one could get more than one in MP anyway because of the huge amount of required XP).

I've browsed through the unit list again and indeed - loyalists have grand marshals AND great mages, Elves have Sylphs... Why does everybody hate Drakes? ^^

And well - to paraphrase a famous Chinese wisdom (actually a post by Neorice himself ;-):
Abillities are only overpowered when the unit is made in such a manner that it overpowers the abillity.
So Armageddon Drakes would be only overpowered if they were made in such a manner, that they would overpower other units. If the Multiplayer Devs don't agree with the Armageddon Drakes, then simply nerf them and include them anyway...
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Neoriceisgood
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Post by Neoriceisgood »

A.A.O.O.W.T.U.I.M.I.S.A.M.T.I.O.T.A


Now that's what I call an acronym.
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Post by Lim-Dul »

LOL - yeah. ;-)

OK - other points FOR including some additional Drakes.

1. The Drakes have been mentioned in the factions thread as the least liked faction/the weakest faction by most players. Other players have hinted at the fact that you can win with every faction against every other faction if you play well - right, exactly in the same way a Kung-Fu master can kill you with his bare hands and MacGyver can make a helicopter out of two matchsticks - this proves nothing.

2. We aren't exactly speaking about making the Drakes stronger - only a bit more versatile. It has been mentioned that the Drakes have the fewest level 1 units of all the faction. But to add insult to injury they have also very few advancement options. Fighters have only one branch and gliders too. With such strange factions as the Werewolves or Wood Elves etc. getting all the attention I find it pretty sad that the Drakes are omitted. I like the Drakes not for their strengths or weaknesses, but because I'm a Dragon-fan since my early years. =)

3. The discussion about the Drake units has been all but finished. I mean - nobody said the new ideas were wrong, couldn't be improved etc. What happened to Neo's Drake ideas is simply that they were forgotten. So we are bringing the topic back, not reviving a rejected idea.

4. I'm a complete dunce when it comes to adding content to Wesnoth - in fact I haven't been able to find the time to read through the WML reference at all. =) So I have to rely on others to bring sth. into life so that I (and others) can test it.

Couldn't we implement Neo's new Drake units in a beta-test faction? I mean - the glider advances and the armageddon drake (which is highly unlikely to ever make an appearance in any MP battle) and those two nameless Drakes have never been tested - nor were stats developed for them (besides the Armageddon Drake, but that's open to discussion).

Let's make some brainstorming and improve the Drake Race without overpowering it. I mean - why shouldn't we concentrate on improving one existing faction that needs some attention instead of designing thousands of new factions?

One question, Neo - would you be able to animate the remaining Drakes e.g. after your exams?

We could do make up some stats etc. and I'm sure everybody would participate in such a discussion to make the Drakes as balanced as possible... And then we (by "we" I mean others - cause I don't know anything about WML ;-) could compile the ideas into a Drake Beta-Faction to playtest everything.
War does not determine who is right - only who is left. - Bertrand Russell
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Project StD - Save the Drakes - we want more branches! =)

Neoriceisgood
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Post by Neoriceisgood »

One question, Neo - would you be able to animate the remaining Drakes e.g. after your exams?

Yeah, and adding tcolour aswell.
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Doc Paterson
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Post by Doc Paterson »

Jetryl wrote:our MP monkeys.
This MP Monkey is quite fond of the Armageddon Drake. Handsome fellow he is.
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Post by Soliton »

Lim-Dul wrote:1. The Drakes have been mentioned in the factions thread as the least liked faction/the weakest faction by most players. Other players have hinted at the fact that you can win with every faction against every other faction if you play well - right, exactly in the same way a Kung-Fu master can kill you with his bare hands and MacGyver can make a helicopter out of two matchsticks - this proves nothing.
Your point being?
You don't believe it so it's untrue?
Lim-Dul wrote:3. The discussion about the Drake units has been all but finished. I mean - nobody said the new ideas were wrong, couldn't be improved etc. What happened to Neo's Drake ideas is simply that they were forgotten. So we are bringing the topic back, not reviving a rejected idea.
That is certainly true afaict.
And forgotten means: no one ever made those units complete and ready to be added. (Or asked any developer to do so afaik.)

Some people seem to think that MP developers are supposed to do that on their own. However that is not the case. I guess we need to clear these misconceptions up some time.
For my part I will say that I don't guarantee to read anything posted to this forum and act upon it. (Especially not to something that is deeply buried in a huge thread in an art forum :roll:)
If someone wants things getting done by me they can pm me about it or better join our IRC channels and ask me there.
I suspect things are similar with the other MP developers.
Lim-Dul wrote: Couldn't we implement Neo's new Drake units in a beta-test faction? I mean - the glider advances and the armageddon drake (which is highly unlikely to ever make an appearance in any MP battle) and those two nameless Drakes have never been tested - nor were stats developed for them (besides the Armageddon Drake, but that's open to discussion).
That sounds like a clever approach.


In general I might add that I'm not against any of these proposed units not even the Armageddon Drake. :wink:
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Lim-Dul
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Post by Lim-Dul »

Your point being?
You don't believe it so it's untrue?
No, no. It's not like that.

I belive it. You know - I cried about nerfing the Elves some posts ago but now that I've learned how to counter them effectively with each faction I pwn their pointy ears. ^^

My point is that the argument about the Drakes being able to defeat other factions is not a very strong one - I mean if people list the Drakes as being their least favourite faction and the weakest one for that matter, then this must be true by the rules of a majority vote. =) It doesn't matter that some pro-players are able to win with them anyway - the majority is dissatisfied with the Drakes, so we should improve them lest they remain an unpopular faction.
Some people seem to think that MP developers are supposed to do that on their own. However that is not the case. I guess we need to clear these misconceptions up some time.
This wasn't actually addressed to the MP Devs. =) It was an answer to Sapient's post. =) I know that the MP Devs haven't seen much of the Drakes designed by Neo so far, cause there wasn't anything tangible in them except for some great concept art. Hence my proposal of a Drake-new-unit-beta-test. When Neo has some spare time we can make some brainstorming and come up with some interesting ideas (or not ;-). After playtesting the new Drakes we'd be able to present a ready solution to the MP Devs, which would require only minor tweaks instead of your full involvement (I know that you must be quite busy with other things =).

Well - my role in the whole process would be quite minor - I'm just a town crier who wants to convince people to move things forward. ;-) I can participate in the stats-design of the drakes and I can playtest them but the factual drawing, animating and coding of the modified faction is beyond me... =)

That is - I may learn WML in the meantime, but I'm really no good at drawing - not very bad either, but simply not good enough. =)
War does not determine who is right - only who is left. - Bertrand Russell
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Project StD - Save the Drakes - we want more branches! =)

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