Random stuff

Brainstorm ideas of possible additions to the game. Read this before posting!

Moderator: Forum Moderators

Forum rules
Before posting a new idea, you must read the following:
Daedalus
Posts: 5
Joined: November 3rd, 2005, 12:39 am

Random stuff

Post by Daedalus »

I think it would be cool if there was support for some more random options in multiplayer. Particularly....

Random item drop. Place random items on random tiles at the start of the game.

Random monsters. A pack of troll warriors that hunted down the first person who discovered them would spice up a fog of war game. Alternatively, randomly distributed monsters would add a fun element to multiplayer, and could be used to delay first contact in small maps.

Random troops. Each player starts with an assortment of random troops, and 0 gold, forcing them to make the best of what they're given.

Random leader. Right now, I believe you can pick a random faction, but if you choose a faction, you aren't given any choice for "random leader".

Also, maybe add an in-game way to save random maps? I've had a couple pop up that I really liked, and it would've been nice to save them.
"Lord, I've been thinking - Spiritual friendship is at least half of the spiritual life."
"Say not so, Ananda - Spiritual friendship is the whole of the spiritual life!"
Beleth
Posts: 240
Joined: October 11th, 2005, 6:22 am

Re: Random stuff

Post by Beleth »

Daedalus wrote:Also, maybe add an in-game way to save random maps? I've had a couple pop up that I really liked, and it would've been nice to save them.
Last item first, you can do this. Save the game like normal, open the save file with a text editor, and copy-paste the map data into a new file. You've now saved the map. :) It's not fully in game, but it's not that hard and you don't have to implement a new save function.

As far as your other suggestions go, I think that this could get unbalancing rather quickly. For random troops, imagine a Knaglan player who gets all Ulfserkers or a team that gets all pierce against undead. For random monsters, if one side gets them and the other side doesn't then that's a problem.
WildPenguin
Posts: 161
Joined: September 6th, 2005, 10:41 pm
Location: Australia

Re: Random stuff

Post by WildPenguin »

Daedalus wrote:Random item drop. Place random items on random tiles at the start of the game.

Random monsters. A pack of troll warriors that hunted down the first person who discovered them would spice up a fog of war game. Alternatively, randomly distributed monsters would add a fun element to multiplayer, and could be used to delay first contact in small maps.

Random troops. Each player starts with an assortment of random troops, and 0 gold, forcing them to make the best of what they're given.
AFAIK, these are all very possible already, all it will take is learning a little WML. :)
Daedalus wrote:Random leader. Right now, I believe you can pick a random faction, but if you choose a faction, you aren't given any choice for "random leader".
Yes, this is already an option.
Beleth wrote:
Daedalus wrote:Also, maybe add an in-game way to save random maps? I've had a couple pop up that I really liked, and it would've been nice to save them.
Last item first, you can do this. Save the game like normal, open the save file with a text editor, and copy-paste the map data into a new file. You've now saved the map. Smile It's not fully in game, but it's not that hard and you don't have to implement a new save function.

As far as your other suggestions go, I think that this could get unbalancing rather quickly. For random troops, imagine a Knaglan player who gets all Ulfserkers or a team that gets all pierce against undead. For random monsters, if one side gets them and the other side doesn't then that's a problem.
Now that the secret is out, this is also a good way of "aquiring" any good maps you find on MP. Just observe, and save. :D
Beleth
Posts: 240
Joined: October 11th, 2005, 6:22 am

Re: Random stuff

Post by Beleth »

WildPenguin wrote:Now that the secret is out, this is also a good way of "aquiring" any good maps you find on MP. Just observe, and save. :D
OMG, it was a secret? :oops: I'm sure to be in trouble now... :cry:

;)
Daedalus
Posts: 5
Joined: November 3rd, 2005, 12:39 am

Post by Daedalus »

One more I forgot... random starting positions!
"Lord, I've been thinking - Spiritual friendship is at least half of the spiritual life."
"Say not so, Ananda - Spiritual friendship is the whole of the spiritual life!"
scott
Posts: 5242
Joined: May 12th, 2004, 12:35 am
Location: Alexandria, VA

Post by scott »

Do you mean a player is randomly assigned to a castle or the castles are randomly placed? The latter is probably a bad idea if you don't want 2 players too close to each other.

The former is probably doable since you can store the locations of the keeps... but I'm not sure.
Hope springs eternal.
Wesnoth acronym guide.
Quentin
Posts: 64
Joined: May 3rd, 2004, 8:05 am

Post by Quentin »

usually people complain that wesnoth is too random, not the opposite :wink:
Beleth
Posts: 240
Joined: October 11th, 2005, 6:22 am

Post by Beleth »

Quentin wrote:usually people complain that wesnoth is too random, not the opposite :wink:
Heh... :)

For me, the randomness in campaigns that gets me isn't the attack rolls (which most people seem to complain about). It's little things, like what the AI builds. I played the first scenario of HttT over twenty times so that I could end it with four level 2 units, and what I noticed is when the AI recruited lots of level 3 Troll Warriors I did significantly less well than when it didn't. Part of what was because of the units themselves, but part of that was how the two allied AI's reacted to the level 3 Troll Warriors.

It's somewhat frustrating to have turn 1 recruits have so much impact on the scenario as a whole. Understandable, but frustrating. :)
Daedalus
Posts: 5
Joined: November 3rd, 2005, 12:39 am

Post by Daedalus »

scott wrote:Do you mean a player is randomly assigned to a castle or the castles are randomly placed? The latter is probably a bad idea if you don't want 2 players too close to each other.

The former is probably doable since you can store the locations of the keeps... but I'm not sure.
I mean randomly assigned to a castle. It spices it up in two ways - One, if you're playing with people you know with fog, you have to play more cautiously. (ie no "The best guy is over here so I'm gonna move the lion's share of my forces there") and two, you can't pick a race because you know you'll be starting by its preferred terrain (forest for elves, hills for orcs, etc)

Beleth: I think the reason most people don't like the attack rolls is because we have a tendecy to look over what we view as probable, and react to what we think is improbably. Like, if someone has an 80% chance to hit, and he hits, he'll probably just ignore it. But if someone has an 80% chance and it misses, he'll be like "How the hell did that happen!? It was only 20%!"

I found myself doing this when I first started, but then I'd just check the statistics and my damage would be about equal to (or over!) what I was supposed to do :oops: Now I like the randomness - It actually adds to the required strategy, as you're forced to provide for worst-case scenarios, instead of just going in with the certainty of victory.

I think the AI still needs a little work. It does a lot of stupid things sometimes... And I was playing multi a couple days ago, and one of the guys dropped out. So the server replaced him with the AI, and he kept fighting... but not very well. He didn't even recruit any new units!

Which gives me another idea... if it's not already implemented, maybe random AI personalities?
"Lord, I've been thinking - Spiritual friendship is at least half of the spiritual life."
"Say not so, Ananda - Spiritual friendship is the whole of the spiritual life!"
User avatar
Noyga
Inactive Developer
Posts: 1790
Joined: September 26th, 2005, 5:56 pm
Location: France

Post by Noyga »

A few things may be made by the random generator.
For the rest, there is a currently problem with using random in multiplayer.
The random value won't be the same on all the multiplayer sides, so you may have a lot of out of sync error and the game would be broken.
However you may made thing with a custom pseudo-random generator, but it would be determinist or it would not be available from the start (EP made a nice pseudorandom engine but things really start at turn 2).
I believe this problem of random in MP will be fixed in a later version of wesnoth.

For game where all the sides play from the same computer, i think all of this is doable in WML, but you could have problems if there are more than one computer.
When the problem of random in MP will be fixed, everything should work.
Rocco
Posts: 4
Joined: February 3rd, 2006, 12:39 am
Location: somewhere between heaven and hell

Post by Rocco »

This idea about more randomness seems fit to me. Has someone developed a single scenario/map yet, where (more or less) randomly placed creatures and items appear?

Has someone developed a HoMM clone for example, where items are placed which can enhance your troops' capabilities and are guarded by (non-moving) monster troops. These could also be placed on villages around the map to make sure that you need some kind of build-up first, before you engage with the opponent. Unfortunately, I don't know how the custom AI would react to such maps. I'm mainly thinking in terms of single player with computer opponents.

Or if not, could someone give me a hint as to a campaign where things are not as linear as in HttT and many other campaigns?
User avatar
Maeglin Dubh
Moderator Emeritus
Posts: 1154
Joined: November 16th, 2005, 8:38 pm
Location: Valley of the Shadow of Death
Contact:

Post by Maeglin Dubh »

*cough* Dead thread *cough*
User avatar
Cuyo Quiz
Posts: 1777
Joined: May 21st, 2005, 12:02 am
Location: South America

Post by Cuyo Quiz »

OTOH, this is Ideas, not Off-Topic, and by that it is allowed to keep on a quiet, slow life for as long as a wipe doesn't happen.
Cuyo Quiz,where madness meets me :D
Turn on, tune in, fall out.
"I know that, but every single person nags about how negative turin is; it should be in the FPI thread "Turin should give positive comments" =)"-Neorice,23 Sep 2004
User avatar
Noyga
Inactive Developer
Posts: 1790
Joined: September 26th, 2005, 5:56 pm
Location: France

Post by Noyga »

FYI, I have made some "collect the powerups" scenarios (not yet released) where random powerups appear and where the map tiles slowly mutate to another tiles.
User avatar
Sapient
Inactive Developer
Posts: 4453
Joined: November 26th, 2005, 7:41 am
Contact:

Post by Sapient »

Click the link in my sig and get "Royal Rumble Lavavillage." It has a powerup placed in a random village.

Then again... my code ain't too pretty. I had to fold the results of the PRNG because I was getting too many even numbers (and very few odd).

This is probably a stitistical error due to a limited set of HP values for leader units. The PRNG can be seeded before the second turn, it just makes it easier to predict the outcome because it is based entirely on leader HP.
http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/User:Sapient... "Looks like your skills saved us again. Uh, well at least, they saved Soarin's apple pie."
Post Reply