Readability of the map: Village or not?

Brainstorm ideas of possible additions to the game. Read this before posting!

Moderator: Forum Moderators

Forum rules
Before posting a new idea, you must read the following:
Squig
Posts: 65
Joined: May 29th, 2005, 10:05 pm
Location: france

Readability of the map: Village or not?

Post by Squig »

I have reinstalled Wesnoth recently (mostly to check the gorgeous new unit pics), and went through a MP game, to see how much I had forgotten.

What bothered me during that game was the addition of village-like tiles to the map, aka mills and ruins. While they sure look nice and all, I find it quite disturbing for the newbish player. In fact, it is even more disturbing due to the fact that ruined castle still counts as a castle, so there is some kind of a logical inconsistency here.

Could there be any solution provided that shows what brings gold and what does not? I know one can already check on the information area top-right of the screen, but it does not seem like an intuitive solution to me.

Maybe there should be some ground markers on the villages (especially neutrals, since flags kinda cover the issue for controlled villages), like the color rings currently under units?
User avatar
Lizard
Posts: 352
Joined: January 19th, 2008, 8:20 am
Location: Hiding in a swamp (gtm +1; DST)

Re: Readability of the map: Village or not?

Post by Lizard »

At least there is already a mousover you can use
E-cookies for the first one to guess the map :-)
E-cookies for the first one to guess the map :-)
isntthereonealready.png (40.85 KiB) Viewed 4186 times
I don't think it would look good to add Village overlays :(
~ I'll heal you by 4 hp if you post next to me ~
Have a look at the Era of Strife, featuring Eltireans, Eventide, Minotaurs, Saurians and Triththa
User avatar
Turuk
Sithslayer
Posts: 5283
Joined: February 28th, 2007, 8:58 pm
Contact:

Re: Readability of the map: Village or not?

Post by Turuk »

It also tells you in the upper right, where it does not give the mills a designation other than the terrain underneath. So you can tell whether a terrain has the village or castle properties.

Some examples:
Village (Village, Swamp)
Village (Village, Hills)
Swamp Ruin (Castle, Swamp)
Mainline Maintainer: AOI, DM, NR, TB and THoT.
UMC Maintainer: Forward They Cried, A Few Logs, A Few More Logs, Start of the War, and Battle Against Time
randomdragoon
Posts: 34
Joined: February 27th, 2009, 8:00 am

Re: Readability of the map: Village or not?

Post by randomdragoon »

I know one can already check on the information area top-right of the screen, but it does not seem like an intuitive solution to me.
I for one have tried to capture a windmill when I was first starting out.
I also once tried to capture the rock in the second HttT scenario.
User avatar
Simons Mith
Posts: 784
Joined: January 27th, 2005, 10:46 pm
Location: Twickenham
Contact:

Re: Readability of the map: Village or not?

Post by Simons Mith »

Perhaps a grey flag or an empty flagpole (or a pair of union jack bloomers blowing in the breeze :-) ) to denote uncaptured villages? I see these guys' points, but I'm against additional screen clutter.
 
User avatar
Gambit
Loose Screw
Posts: 3266
Joined: August 13th, 2008, 3:00 pm
Location: Dynamica
Contact:

Re: Readability of the map: Village or not?

Post by Gambit »

some people who aren't new sometimes forget that in normal wesnoth windmills arent used to grind food into grain and try to take them for income :oops:


on top of the grey flag idea for uncaptured villages, I'd also like to see a version of the windmill that actually does work as a village...
Devrailis Colandore
Posts: 76
Joined: April 22nd, 2007, 3:16 am
Location: Canada

Re: Readability of the map: Village or not?

Post by Devrailis Colandore »

I think windmills are fine as they are. The first time I saw a windmill, I tried charging it with my lancer, I mean, I checked the upper-right hand corner of the UI and noticed it said Plains, rather than Village. In addition to that, I also noticed that unit defences on the surrounding plains were identical to unit defences on the windmill, which was another tip off that this was not a village. Plus, it's one of those little things that you would rarely repeat more than once.

I agree with Simons Mith. I like the "cleaness" of Wesnoth's interface. I don't feel it would be a good idea to add any more clutter.
User avatar
Simons Mith
Posts: 784
Joined: January 27th, 2005, 10:46 pm
Location: Twickenham
Contact:

Re: Readability of the map: Village or not?

Post by Simons Mith »

Oh, I always try to check out windmills, temples and other notable pieces of terrain. Usually they're just fluff, but you never know when there'll be something interesting there. However, I'm deeply ashamed I never thought to use a lancer for the job.
 
User avatar
scienceguy8
Posts: 226
Joined: June 27th, 2007, 2:54 pm
Location: Middle of Nowhere, U.S.A.
Contact:

Re: Readability of the map: Village or not?

Post by scienceguy8 »

Devrailis Colandore wrote:The first time I saw a windmill, I tried charging it with my lancer...
Thought it was a giant? :lol2:
"You can't kill an unarmed, upside down man!"
Dr. Rodney McKay
Stargate Atlantis
Runner

Gilberti Industries
scienceguy8
Proud Member of the Marching Salukis
User avatar
Gambit
Loose Screw
Posts: 3266
Joined: August 13th, 2008, 3:00 pm
Location: Dynamica
Contact:

Re: Readability of the map: Village or not?

Post by Gambit »

on the other hand though once you "learn" to ignore things like this. What about in campaigns and addons where they actually DO something.

I guess the context of the scenario in question would be responsible for letting you know?
Devrailis Colandore
Posts: 76
Joined: April 22nd, 2007, 3:16 am
Location: Canada

Re: Readability of the map: Village or not?

Post by Devrailis Colandore »

I think you're correct that the context of the scenario should let the player know.

In all of the campaigns and add-ons I've played where items like windmills or altars and such have had unusual properties, it's usually been made very clear that they can be interacted with and that they actually DO something. If this isn't made clear to the player, then I think the problem wouldn't lie so much with Wesnoth's UI as it would with the particular campaign's design. It could be an issue as trivial as (and not limited to) making a quick notice at the beginning of the campaign or scenario.
Squig
Posts: 65
Joined: May 29th, 2005, 10:05 pm
Location: france

Re: Readability of the map: Village or not?

Post by Squig »

I guess a neutral flag or flagpole on neutral villages would fix the problem well enough, or make the village icon overlay show as soon as an unit is selected?

A more drastic change would be to make it a new terrain type, but I'm pretty sure this will not happen.
User avatar
zookeeper
WML Wizard
Posts: 9742
Joined: September 11th, 2004, 10:40 pm
Location: Finland

Re: Readability of the map: Village or not?

Post by zookeeper »

Having neutral villages feature a neutral flag or pole sounds like the best idea.

It'd probably be a bit of an artistic challenge to make the neutral flag or pole really look both recognizable and intuitive enough as well as neutral, though. Just a pole isn't very visible and it's not immediately clear what it is, but a flag could easily make the villages look like they already belong to someone.
User avatar
Sorrow
Posts: 230
Joined: July 25th, 2006, 12:07 am
Contact:

Re: Readability of the map: Village or not?

Post by Sorrow »

Windmills were villages in at least one version... I think the first one where they were added.
Let us all measure in milliyards, that way we can all get along.

Replay Archive: http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/Replays
User avatar
Suukorak
Posts: 66
Joined: April 13th, 2009, 10:01 pm

Re: Readability of the map: Village or not?

Post by Suukorak »

There was a scenario in TROW where a pillar was a village... so why not windmills?
He who is still learning WML, can still make a campaign. (or at least try)

You are an Arch Mage - You're definitely intelligent, but some people would say you spend too much time inside. The power you have learned, however, is simply unmatched.
Post Reply