Suggestion: Drake Flare available only as leader

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cmonyiman
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Suggestion: Drake Flare available only as leader

Post by cmonyiman » February 12th, 2009, 12:54 pm

Let me explain myself. I think if Drake Flare is used as a normal unit, it gives a too big advantage for drakes.

When Drake Flare is a leader, your leadership won't be used "all" the time, because you'll need to constantly go back to recruit, and to protect it. So you will still use leadership, but with "moderation". Now suppose, you level up a Pyro. Imagine that an intelligent Pyro needs 24xp ( 3 kills ), and Pyro kills easily (so it is not hard to give the xp for it). Once the Pyro becomes Drake Flare, it doesn't need to be as protected as a leader, and it doesn't need to go back recruit. It's attack is quite good, but most of all it can use his leadership ability constantly (at day, at dawn , at dusk, at night - for every attack and every defense). This gives drakes a constant +50% at day, +25% at dawn/dusk, +0% at night. This can be a real nightmare for other factions, as even at night they hit real hard and sometimes you can't even attack at night. So what I'm saying, is that this Drake Flare (= 1 level up) can (but not necessarily will) actually win the whole game for you
Thus, Drakes can defend at night and at day they just simply do a massacre.

You might say that you can find another way to attack, or from another side, etc. But that depends on the map and on some maps you simply can't attack from other sides, and on the other hand Drakes have mobility and are quite quick to counterattack.

Now take loyalists. They only have leadership as a leader and it is well balanced. The leader can't always give them a constant bonus, sometimes you attack with it, sometimes you defend with it, but it isn't "always" there. So why do drakes have this advantage and not loyalist?

Skizzaltix
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Re: Suggestion: Drake Flare available only as leader

Post by Skizzaltix » February 12th, 2009, 2:27 pm

...Because the mainline factions are not, in fact, meant to be identical ;)

If you're going to go at it this way, though--How come the Rebels can get a leadership unit just by leveling something up? And what about the Knalgan Alliance and the Undead? They don't get any leadership units. The Northerners get one, but it can only give its bonus to other Goblins, so it doesn't really count.

The default era is rather finely tuned at this point, and such a dramatic change--The complete removal of a unit from its unit tree--Has such a microscopically small chance of being included that it's really not worth thinking about it.

All that said, if you want to try this out, by all means--Go in and remove "Drake Flare" from the Burner's level-up options. Then play a few games and see what happens. Quite frankly, I don't think this change makes much sense, but on the other hand, I don't play very often, so what do I know?

cmonyiman
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Re: Suggestion: Drake Flare available only as leader

Post by cmonyiman » February 12th, 2009, 2:53 pm

I am saying leadership should still be available, only as leader. Second, I didn't say it because it is "nice", I said it because it isn't balanced in my opinion, telling why it isn't as well. However, please argument my points as well before just telling me it is "fine" as the way it is. I am also perfectly aware about the differences of factions and why some factions don't and shouldn't have leadership and some do. And elvish captain isn't the same, as you know it as well as I do because it is neutral and at day it isn't 50% bonus (except mage and wose), and also because drakes have a higher damage rate than the elves (thus leadership also gives much more to the drakes, especially at day).

That being said, I know this removal will not be made, that's why it was only a suggestion, and so I just want to know why it is there, and if it "is" balanced, how.

Imagine Drake v Orc, how a full-time leadership can win the game.

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Re: Suggestion: Drake Flare available only as leader

Post by Wintermute » February 12th, 2009, 3:55 pm

cmonyiman wrote:Now take loyalists. They only have leadership as a leader and it is well balanced. The leader can't always give them a constant bonus, sometimes you attack with it, sometimes you defend with it, but it isn't "always" there. So why do drakes have this advantage and not loyalist?
Elves also can get leadership after leveling fighters - it's not just drakes. In terms of calling the loyalist lieutenant "well balanced", I disagree. Looey is one of the most problematic leaders in the eyes of many experienced players. In terms of "why drakes get this", then consider that (IMO) drake strategy in a 1v1 largely boils down to either chalking up an early advantage (using that mobility early when it is most surprising/effective), or leveling up a key unit (like a burner) into a major asset.

If, as you indicate, loyalists could level fencers or what have you into something with leadership, do you think that would "even out" the loy-drake matchup? Such things have been considered, once upon a time (Becephalus pushed the idea IIRC), but I think it would take some doing to make it work. In theory, loyalists are "good enough" without leadership of any kind. If you get a WM or javelineer as your leader are you really in trouble?

Personally, I think all leaders should get leadership, but that has it's own set of problems. :wink:
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JW
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Re: Suggestion: Drake Flare available only as leader

Post by JW » February 12th, 2009, 6:54 pm

Man....I hate seeing all those burners level into flares in my 1v1s and 2v2s. I guess I shouldn't put my units in water so much, or perhaps I should kill the 30% defense unit before it gets so much xp. But then again at 30% xp requirements that's really hard to do. Having 5 gpv also ensures that they'll have many more expensive burners to follow should I be lucky enough to kill one.

For some reason I never have this problem against rebels and their captains though. For some reason elfs are bad at leading.

cmonyiman
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Re: Suggestion: Drake Flare available only as leader

Post by cmonyiman » February 12th, 2009, 7:16 pm

Wintermute, I understand that levelling a drake gets you an enormous advantage, but v some factions "constant" drake leadership can be much more annoying than any other lvl2s.
JW wrote:Man....I hate seeing all those burners level into flares in my 1v1s and 2v2s. I guess I shouldn't put my units in water so much, or perhaps I should kill the 30% defense unit before it gets so much xp. But then again at 30% xp requirements that's really hard to do. Having 5 gpv also ensures that they'll have many more expensive burners to follow should I be lucky enough to kill one. .
When a pyro kills (even at day it is real hard) I never have any units to back it up, that's why my pyro always dies so easily. Yes, that thing dies much faster than other units. And 30% defense makes it so that Pyro gets always hit.

You are so right that I won't even try to argument further. :wink:
JW wrote:For some reason I never have this problem against rebels and their captains though. For some reason elfs are bad at leading.
Then again, elves are as good as drakes. They have same power. They deal same damage, fighter + leadership totally match a clasher + leadership. Oh yes, and of course they recieve +50% at day, at least the wose and the mage, you'd better start spamming them and kill all.


Of course I don't have big problems when I'm with Orc and facing leadershipped drakes, though I have never tried to fight with Orc facing leadershipped elves, I guess it should be the same.
Last edited by cmonyiman on February 12th, 2009, 7:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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JW
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Re: Suggestion: Drake Flare available only as leader

Post by JW » February 12th, 2009, 7:27 pm

:lol2: Sorry man, I didn't realize you were the OP. :wink:
cmonyiman wrote:When a pyro kills I never have any units to back it up, that's why my pyro always dies so easily. Yes, that thing dies much faster than other units. And 30% defense makes it so that Pyro gets always hit.

You are so right that I won't even try to argument further. :wink:
JW wrote:For some reason I never have this problem against rebels and their captains though. For some reason elfs are bad at leading.
Then again, elves are as good as drakes. They have same power. They deal same damage, fighter + leadership totally match a clasher + leadership. Oh yes, and of course they recieve +50% at day, at least the wose and the mage, you'd better start spamming them and kill all.
While I do think the Flare is quite a powerful unit for Drakes, I really don't think the availability to level into one unbalances the game. For reasons I hinted at above, it does take work to keep a burner killing things + keep it alive. Even though they do massive damage they cost 21g and have very poor defenses. My favorite is seeing them cut to shreds at night by Grunts who simply ZOCd at day to wait for the kill.

Anyway, since this is only my opinion I'll just leave it at until I have something else to say.

5dPZ
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Re: Suggestion: Drake Flare available only as leader

Post by 5dPZ » February 12th, 2009, 7:42 pm

I personally against any nerf on drake faction. Because I still think it is the weakest faction on small maps (which I play the most) in Ver 1.4.

I hope there are improvement of drakes in 1.6 on small maps.

(should we make sauran +50% cold resist, and -50% fire resist already? since they are counter part of drakes, which have the reversed resistance.)

cmonyiman
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Re: Suggestion: Drake Flare available only as leader

Post by cmonyiman » February 12th, 2009, 7:43 pm

Hehe, indeed it is hard to level up one, though in longer matches it can be quite frequent if you give the xp to the right unit and protect it. But all that really depends on the game.

This idea came from a personal experience, where I found it very hard even to attack at night, with orcs, because of a Drake Flare ( that evil pyro finished my units at the day attack, and then failed to kill it). Clashers made defensive lines at night, but I needed some luck to kill them with archers. And the retaliation of clashers+leadership would have totally massacred my archers if it would fail. Also 2 clashers were being leaderhipped, so there was no way I could attack with grunts or goblins. And of course at day I needed to run till night, because they could have killed my units quite quickly if in range.

So , I couldn't attack at night, couldn't defend at day, and I couldn't see any way to stop constant drake leadership. I figured it would be quite unbalanced & annoying to say "gg" after my opponent levels up one unit.

Well I'll stop telling my life now. :wink:

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Re: Suggestion: Drake Flare available only as leader

Post by Glowing Fish » February 12th, 2009, 9:23 pm

I have to say, as opposed to many people who post about how units are overpowered, you provide some good reasoning.

Also, I can't think of many particular matches where I have seen this happen, and whether it changed the game quickly after it happened.

In general, it doesn't surprise me that leveling up a unit would be a game changer. That is often the case, and why leveling up units is a good thing. Most of the time, if in a game I am not winning easily, my strategy is to wait and level up a unit. A Flare might seem unstoppable because of its leadership potential, but is it more powerful than a
-Wraith : Pretty much invincible against melee at night
-Shadow: Deals 60 damage at night with backstab, has skirmisher
-Dwarf Steadfast: Get a strong, resilient one of these, put it in a village and there isn't a lot that your opponent can do
-Berserker: Especially a strong one, 8-4 Berserker means that any enemy ranged unit can be attacked easily
-Necromancer: Strong magic attack at night can blast through almost any enemy unit

There are probably more examples, but in general Level 2 units are often very hard for the enemy to deal with.
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JW
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Re: Suggestion: Drake Flare available only as leader

Post by JW » February 12th, 2009, 11:25 pm

Glowing Fish wrote:-Wraith : Pretty much invincible against melee
Fixed your quote. :wink:

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Re: Suggestion: Drake Flare available only as leader

Post by Glowing Fish » February 13th, 2009, 12:16 am

JW wrote:
Glowing Fish wrote:-Wraith : Pretty much invincible against melee
Fixed your quote. :wink:
Well, it could be debated, but the point is, there are lots of Level 2 units that are game changers.
Don't go to Glowing Fish for advice, he will say both yes and no.

cmonyiman
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Re: Suggestion: Drake Flare available only as leader

Post by cmonyiman » February 13th, 2009, 8:42 am

Yeah, I guess you're right, though I would like to note that all of those units have weaknesses, it depends v which faction they have levelled, the Wraith can die quite easily by a mage, and yet with dwarves it is more complicated to kill one. WM, Red Mage, Berserker, ... , can also die quite easily. So basically, normally you can find "something" with which to kill his lvl2.

But I see your point, so this topic can be locked.

Thanks for your answers !

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Re: Suggestion: Drake Flare available only as leader

Post by Turuk » February 13th, 2009, 1:50 pm

It's nice to see that people are handling discussions in the ideas forum maturely these days.

At the request of the OP.

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