STORMSWEPT Special Terrain That Nerfs Flying Units' Mobility

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Thundersnow
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STORMSWEPT Special Terrain That Nerfs Flying Units' Mobility

Post by Thundersnow »

I recently discovered Wesnoth and built my first map, two-player 12x26 that looks like a nice place to live if you like iced over rivers twisting through snowbound forests in alpine mountain country.

http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=23365

Anyways, this map has a lot of fun potential with restricted movement and dangerous chokepoints.....unless one of the armies fields flying creatures. This is the impetus for an idea that I have not seen on the frequently suggested list, so here goes.

There should be a special terrain type that restricts the mobility of flying units, perhaps due to dangerous weather. These hexes could be called "Stormswept," giving you such combinations as "Stormswept Mountain Village" and "Stormswept Snowbound Forest." Now for the brainstorming.

There are several possibly ways to handle how Stormswept hexes nerf flying units. The main one is mobility nerfing. Normal ground-based (non-flying) units ignore the "Stormswept" attribute of hexes they enter/occupy, only counting the modifiers that would apply to them as ground units (i.e., Loyalist Cavalry entering a Stormswept Snowbound Forest would only be affected by Snow and Forest; however, a Knar Gryphon Ridger would be affected by Forest, Snow AND Storm).
  • How should flying units attempting to enter a Stormswept hex pay for their movement?
    Flying units pay DOUBLE, TRIPLE or QUADRUPLE normal MP cost.
    Flying units spend ALL of their remaining Movement Points entering a Stormswept space (making it the last hex they enter).
    As above, but Flying units MUST be adjacent to a Stormswept space at the start of the turn before entering it.
    Flying units effectively loose their flying ability and become ground units upon entering a Stormswept hex. As far as the mechanics of gameplay are concerned, when a flying unit enters or occupies a Stormswept space, it gets temporarily "downgraded" to a ground unit of the type that most resembles it. For example, Drakes would become Saurians, Gryphons would become cavalry and Ghosts would become infantry. Hmm, this kinda complicates things a bit. How about just downgrading flying units to the *worst* type of unit possible for the subtype fo Stormbound hex they enter/occupy while they are there? :mrgreen:
Flying units occupying Stormswept hexes should suffer combat penalties (attack/defense) from being forced to fight on the ground instead of from the air. Would 50% be too severe?

Well, talk it over....
Thundersnow
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Re: STORMSWEPT Special Terrain That Nerfs Flying Units' Mobility

Post by Thundersnow »

Ah, and this idea just came to me -- what about places that are impossible for flying units to attack, such as a deep, dark forest with a thick canopy that cannot be penetrated? Flying units can enter and occupy these spaces, but cannot attack non-flying units occupying such spaces (however, ground units can still attack flying units occupying such spaces). I dunno, call it "Canopy Forest" as a placeholder for now?
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Limabean
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Re: STORMSWEPT Special Terrain That Nerfs Flying Units' Mobility

Post by Limabean »

I don't see why not. For stormswept spaces i think higher movement cost would be enough of a nerf. No need to complicate things by changing the type of unit when they enter the hex. The cnopy forest idea also sounds fine, but I'm not going to be the one making these so I don't really know if they will be worth the effort of implementation. You should wait for a developer. :wink:
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cool evil
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Re: STORMSWEPT Special Terrain That Nerfs Flying Units' Mobility

Post by cool evil »

The canopy forest idea might not be so good in my opinion. By saying that ground units get free hits on the flying units because they have a sort of "ambush" ability and not taking any of their own, it implies that the game is realistic to a degree. And if you want to get into the concept of realism, you will find out that flying units have the upper hand in both melee and ranged, since they occupy higher grounds and can cannot be harmed by melee attacks because obviously they are way off the ground.
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Cernunnos
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Re: STORMSWEPT Special Terrain That Nerfs Flying Units' Mobility

Post by Cernunnos »

Hi,

Mushrooms, Caves and Deep Water are done for this purpose, depending of the flying unit you're talking about but i think the big problem is for Glyders and Gryphon Riders?!

But a Storm terrain is a good idea, since it would be disgraceful to have shrooms in the mountains of your map for example...

Though the problem is here, how should a storm terrain be represented?
"While portrait art may be where Wesnoth gets its glamour, and sprite art may be where Wesnoth gets its zest, it's the terrain art that's so crucial to Wesnoth's polish - it's the canvas that the rest goes on." Sangel
CarpeGuitarrem
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Re: STORMSWEPT Special Terrain That Nerfs Flying Units' Mobility

Post by CarpeGuitarrem »

cool evil wrote:The canopy forest idea might not be so good in my opinion. By saying that ground units get free hits on the flying units because they have a sort of "ambush" ability and not taking any of their own, it implies that the game is realistic to a degree. And if you want to get into the concept of realism, you will find out that flying units have the upper hand in both melee and ranged, since they occupy higher grounds and can cannot be harmed by melee attacks because obviously they are way off the ground.
Actually, if you want to get into realism, it isn't as straightforward as "flying has the high ground and can't be harmed by melee attacks". A flying attack actually requires a great deal of coordination (unless it be the fire-spray of a dragon). If your target knows that you're coming, it's actually quite easy to dodge, because any minute adjustments done to the flight path after a swooping dive is initiated are likely to cause a stall or other negative flight condition. There's only a very small window of time, as well, for the flyer to act. If they miss it, the attack's gone.

The best example of an aerial attacker in RL is the peregrine falcon. It, in its turn, is only able to attack successfully because it can reach speeds of up to 273 miles per hour (440 kilometres per hour), catching its pray by surprise. The peregrine falcon also only attacks birds much smaller than it, because it simply snatches them out of the air. It also requires a little bit of a cushion to pull out of the dive, something which you wouldn't have whilst attacking a unit on the ground. And I haven't even gotten into size yet. At the current sizes, flying units traveling at those speeds would severely risk pummeling themselves into the ground with a swooping attack.

Thus, the most safe tactic for a flying unit is to hover, and then to move into melee range when it wants to attack. See, though, that this makes them vulnerable to melee counterattacks quite readily.
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cool evil
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Re: STORMSWEPT Special Terrain That Nerfs Flying Units' Mobility

Post by cool evil »

Drakes > breathe fire > burn wood > no more forest to hide in
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suvorov
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Re: STORMSWEPT Special Terrain That Nerfs Flying Units' Mobility

Post by suvorov »

Of course for now, you can always use cave hexes to nerf flying moevment ability, I think it takes horses and drakes 3 mp to move over a cave, while its only 1 or 2 for most other units.
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Thundersnow
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Re: STORMSWEPT Special Terrain That Nerfs Flying Units' Mobility

Post by Thundersnow »

Cernunnos wrote:Hi,

Mushrooms, Caves and Deep Water are done for this purpose, depending of the flying unit you're talking about but i think the big problem is for Glyders and Gryphon Riders?!

But a Storm terrain is a good idea, since it would be disgraceful to have shrooms in the mountains of your map for example...

Though the problem is here, how should a storm terrain be represented?
I would represent Storm terrain as a *slightly* darker version of the normal terrain the Storm is on with a little thundercloud and a flashing lightning bolt and animated rain in the upper right corner, rather like the stylized icon for thunderstorms seen on local weather forecasts during the television news.
Image

I did not know that caves and mushrooms limited flying units so much. Does this apply also the bridges over chasms and lava pools? In an unrelated note, those were good points about flying units engaging in melee attacks; however, I believe that Peregrine Falcons often take ducks and geese on the wing, which are larger than they are.
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Cernunnos
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Re: STORMSWEPT Special Terrain That Nerfs Flying Units' Mobility

Post by Cernunnos »

I did not know that caves and mushrooms limited flying units so much. Does this apply also the bridges over chasms and lava pools?
You can see the cost of the move over each terrain type, in game, with right click >> unit description.

Chasm bridge has aliases (when you move your mouse over a terrain on the top-right corner of the string you can see aliases), multiple aliases in fact: chasm and cave.

So i don't know but since chasm takes 1 move for a glider i'll say that chasm bridge takes 1 move too. (imo, since there's also a cave alias i'm not sure, you should test on a map which has this kind of terrain)

BTW, if you go further in your attempts to limit flying units, i think i read somewhere that cave mushrooms use movement of mushrooms, not cave... (once again you should try, with the map editor for example.)

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Re: STORMSWEPT Special Terrain That Nerfs Flying Units' Mobility

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