not an arms race (I hope)

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not an arms race (I hope)

Post by deoxy »

How about an ability that cancels ALL weapon specials? That is, it could be set as attack only, defense only, or all (very powerful and hard to balance - perhaps not allowed at all), and it could be implemented as either a weapon special or a unit ability (or both).

I'm going to use the working name "Dead zone" for my examples

Example 1: A unit has the Dead Zone ability, active on defense (some kind of defense-primary unit). Charge would fail completely against such a unit, but such a unit could still be poisoned if it attacked a poisoning unit. Magic attacks would likewise still be quite dangerous if the unit attacked.

Example 2: A unit has Dead Zone on a ranged attack, active all the time. This would nerf the archmage a good bit, but a charging unit would behave normally against it, and melee poisoners would be unhampered, while ranged poisoners would have a problem.

Yes, I read the thread on FPIs, etc.

Th "arms race" issue was specifically mentioned. If you think that applies to this suggestion, then say so, but there's not need to be rude about it.

This is noticeably different from the "arms race" concept in that it's not specific - that is, it's not "immunity to poison", it's "no special abilities at all", and it should probably affect the unit itself as well.

Too much like the concept of the FPI "arms race"?
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Post by zookeeper »

I don't think it's FPI or would break the "rules" about arms races.

However, I think it'd be a bit dull on a normal unit. On some very exceptional thing, like a mythical end boss from another dimension, it might work. Still, I'd find it strange conceptually, as making everything from completely natural and mundane things (poison, charge) to magical ones just "not work" doesn't seem to make much sense (purely on the gameplay level it'd of course be very simple and easy to understand).
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Post by romnajin »

To give you an example of what an arms race would be; let's say that your idea becomes mainline, and another person comes along and suggests a "penetrating" attack special that would go through the "deadzone" unit's defenses, that would be a meta-ability, which is bad. Then someone else might come along and say "hey I have an idea, how bout a super dead zone ability that will even stop penetrating attack specials! That's when an armrace would start.

Some advice that would help that's from another thread(I don't know exactly where); the best way to get an idea into mainline is to get in a UMC first, then a developer might see it, and put it in mainline.
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Post by turin »

It wouldn't be an arms-race, if it was broad enough to nullify ALL weapons specials (instead of, for example, all magical specials - in which case another special will arise known as "magical not nullified by dead zone"), but I agree with Zookeeper it really doesn't make much sense. It might work for a multiplayer RPG scenario where the emphasis is completely on gameplay not on the world AND where units are allowed to be really powerful, but nowhere else.
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Post by irrevenant »

I third Zookeeper and Turin. The ability as described doesn't seem to represent any credible real (or magical) world ability.
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Post by nightcrawler »

If a creature is powerful enough to nullify specials, why wouldn't it just nullify the weapon damage?
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Arms race FPI

Post by MDG »

Slightly off-topic perhaps but the whole immunity to poison as an example of the arms race issue is somewhat weird:-
Dave in the FPI thread wrote:* There should be an ability that cancels out Poison/Magic/Drain/etc.
Result: The developers feel that this would lead to an 'arms race' where eg. "Immunity to Poison" would result in the creation of "Super Poison that even effects the Immune", "Immunity to even Super-Poison" etc. resulting in 'levels' of abilities. The developers feel that this would add an unwanted complexity to the game.
In terms of gameplay itself, immunity to poison is already in Mainline default era, it's called the undead trait. In fact, in gameplay terms immunity to drain is also in Mainline default era because undead units are immune to it. Also, in game play terms, skirmisher cancels out zone of control.

So, the no arms race guideline may already have three exceptions. Note: saying that because they are not abilities makes it different is just sophistry. If you called them abilities it wouldn't be OK, but if they are not then it is OK, despite game play being the same either way? Please...

Overall, I think the more important rule is:- "Does it make game play more interesting?" If the answer to that is yes, then break any other guidelines/rules you want to and make exceptions. I am not objecting to or complaining about the way things are, I like it. Just noting that perhaps better examples could be found and also a note could be added that fun/interesting game play takes precedence over pretty much any/all other rules and guidelines. I am a big fan of the quote
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