Leafsea Burning (1.16)

[Lord-Knightmare]

Edit: Decided to remove this add-on for now, get it properly fixed and tested then re-publish.

I saw your campaign announcement while lurking on forums during work hours and I get home and I dont find it installable and see this...
Great, now I gotta switch laptops to get the 1.17.x version.

[Spannerbag]

The image errors occur in Slaughter. It looks like playing easy may help. Elvish Fighter Ghost. See also units/undead.cfg.

I think this is one of the things I fixed but somehow managed to update the wrong version ... or something.

Hew's name: I think he's supposed to say something like, "Hew, son of Dulthalios, who forged the Silver Spork when...". I just remember Lethalia got chewed out for not saying her name right when she was introduced to a dwarf.

Uh... OK, will see what I can come up with.

Check out the attached. I can recall an elvish archer who is probably "elite" (I pretty much ONLY recruited the special ones, and he has an icon), or I can recruit one that has elite in the name. Since their unit type names are different, there must be something different about them, right?

Not until they reach maximum level, prior to that elite units cost more for no benefit.
I presume this is the unit you meant:

Here's a screen grab of elite vs regular, displayed in shipwreck (you probably skipped past)

So the elite icon is there to inform the player that this unit will become an elite unit ("Elite..." unit type) when it reaches maximum level - but until then it is just an expensive normal unit (albeit with selectable traits).
Hope this clarifies.

S09: Working from memory here... The civies advanced pretty early. When they left for the east, I want to say there were like 8 of them (and a handful of advanced units) and I had to get 6(?) to the border. Anyway, I just remember that if only 2 or 3 more had advanced I wouldn't have 6(?) to complete the scenario. Hmm, was that the scenario where they were recruited/recalled with "random" XP (IDK, perhaps these were recalls from an earlier scenario, I just remember they came out with XP, but not the same every time) -- maybe they advance too easy?

Once Hew arrives it is possible, but less likely, that the civs will garner enough experience to advance as they are primarily moving not fighting.
The reason why they start with a bit of experience was to reduce the chance of poor RNG making the position untenable and to maybe give the player a few regular (and therefore disposable) units for use vs the enemies in the east.
I suppose I could give the civs more gold and zero starting experience?
Do you think that would improve enjoyment/gameplay?

Spoiler:

I was pretty sure the orcs would turn on me. I was warned to stay out of it. Other than defending myself from the units coming up along the river, I avoided the orcs until the one was nearly dead and the other was undefended. I almost abandoned my castle just to avoid any conflict with the orcs. That would have pushed me toward the undead.

I also wonder if the orcs should not have turned on me since I was just hanging back and not engaging the undead. I wasn't paying much attention, but fighting the undead was kind of part of the deal wasn't it?

Spoiler:

Hmm... this is where a second pair of eyes really helps.
On reflection I'm not at all sure the player choice early on actually adds anything; the idea was to let the player choose between a rather tough fight and a much easier one where the undead win quite quickly but in so doing expose their flanks somewhat.

I'm conflicted because on the one hand I quite like the idea of a dwarf actually choosing to "ally" (but not really) with an orc.
But OTOH it makes balancing the scenario harder and also adds a lot more complexity.

Surprised you pulled the campaign, it's totally playable as is.

Waaay too many plates spinning at once just now which is why I removed the add-on: I don't have the head space right now to fix things on-the-fly, I tried... and that just caused more problems

I've managed to break both the v16 and v17 versions so will take the time (when I have it) to fix and then play through both versions.
Despite recent evidence to the contrary, I really don't like publishing buggy stuff.

Given current commitments it'll be awhile - maybe several weeks - before I can fix/test/publish anything.
I'm going to focus on the v16 version first then v17 which currently uses deprecated terrain macros so I'll have to work out what the new, approved versions are and how to use them.

Thanks for all your feedback, it really helped.

Cheers!
-- Spannerbag

[white_haired_uncle]

So the elite icon is there to inform the player that this unit will become an elite unit ("Elite..." unit type) when it reaches maximum level - but until then it is just an expensive normal unit (albeit with selectable traits).
Hope this clarifies.

I understand it, but I don't think it's clear. Let's say I now recruit an Elite Elvish Archer. Now I have two units that are the same thing, expect one is called Elite (so that I know I paid extra for it?), and one is not (so that I know it's a unit I advanced from a civilian?). Both will be elite eventually, but aren't yet, and one is called elite while the other one is not.

Oh yeah, the icon looks a little too much like "loyal" IMO.

I suppose I could give the civs more gold and zero starting experience?
Do you think that would improve enjoyment/gameplay?

IDK. I just suspect it would be possible for too many civs to advance that you can't complete the scenario, which is kind of a suck way to lose. Probably not likely, but possible.

Spoiler:

I should note, I went up and discovered the cave, which seemed to isolate all but one of the yetis so they couldn't get to my civs. If I hadn't done that, I may not have had enough civs after all.

[Spannerbag]

Edit: Decided to remove this add-on for now, get it properly fixed and tested then re-publish.

I saw your campaign announcement while lurking on forums during work hours and I get home and I dont find it installable and see this...
Great, now I gotta switch laptops to get the 1.17.x version.

Apologies but I pulled that too

Right at the end of the publishing process I was rushing to get stuff done before RL got in the way.
I managed to muck up the v16 install (I meant to update chunks of the v16 code with newer v17 logic but managed in my haste to copy over stuff I shouldn't and also broke some unit definitions).

Currently I'm fixing/re-playing v16 right through when and as time permits.
Then I'll fix the v17 version (that also has some old terrain macros that when the game is reloaded can issue deprecated warnings so I have to learn these new macros too).

As an ugly hack for the v17 version if you delete the reference to DROWNING_SETUP in the very first scenario 01_prologue.cfg it might work OK.

Basically I'm fuming with myself 'cos I had both versions working on my PC then b*gg*r*d everything up by deciding to add some tweaks on v17 to v16 prior to publishing.

Sorry to mess you around.

-- Spannerbag

[Spannerbag]

So the elite icon is there to inform the player that this unit will become an elite unit ("Elite..." unit type) when it reaches maximum level - but until then it is just an expensive normal unit (albeit with selectable traits).
Hope this clarifies.

I understand it, but I don't think it's clear. Let's say I now recruit an Elite Elvish Archer. Now I have two units that are the same thing, expect one is called Elite (so that I know I paid extra for it?), and one is not (so that I know it's a unit I advanced from a civilian?). Both will be elite eventually, but aren't yet, and one is called elite while the other one is not.

The current method is a bit tortuous because I thought in the early days it would be easier for elite and regular units to share unit_type definitions until maximum level is reached.
With hindsight, defining a whole new unit tree might've been easier but what I have works so I'm sticking with that.

Basically when a player recruits an elite unit the unit is actually a dummy type with " (elite)" appended to the base unit name as per the first few lines of this macro:

Code: Select all

# "Dummy" elite unittypes used for recruitment
#  Is transformed to [base_unit] as part of global event trait select
#
#define ELITE_DUMMY_RECRUIT COST UNIT
#arg PREFIX
#endarg
[unit_type]
  id={PREFIX}{UNIT}_e
  [base_unit]
    id={PREFIX}{UNIT}
  [/base_unit]
  num_traits=0
  name= _ "{UNIT} (elite)"	# First reason these unit_types are needed...
  cost={COST}			# ...and the second (and last).  Yeah, sledgehammers and walnuts - but couldn't think of a better way :-(
...

When an elite unit is recruited the unit type name does have " (elite)", however this goes away once the actual unit is created, which is basically a regular unit. The only differentiator between regulars and elites is the icon.

Oh yeah, the icon looks a little too much like "loyal" IMO.

Well it would, it's the loyal icon with hue and saturation changes
I don't think anyone will consufe the loyal and elite icons tho'?

Not sure what else I could do?
Didn't want to use an overlay (too many units would need one and it would look messy on screen IMHO).
Alternate ellipse wouldn't be obvious enough (even if I knew how to do that!).
Didn't want to edit a large number of sprites.
So, any suggestions gratefully received!
Seriously, I'm not being sarcastic, I'm genuinely interested to learn if I've missed a better way of doing this.

I suppose I could give the civs more gold and zero starting experience?
Do you think that would improve enjoyment/gameplay?

IDK. I just suspect it would be possible for too many civs to advance that you can't complete the scenario, which is kind of a suck way to lose. Probably not likely, but possible.

Spoiler:

I should note, I went up and discovered the cave, which seemed to isolate all but one of the yetis so they couldn't get to my civs. If I hadn't done that, I may not have had enough civs after all.

I suppose I could trap civ levelups after Hew arrives and spawn a new civ/prevent levelup but that would be clumsy and would be weird in-game, I suspect.
I still think the best option to try first is to just lose the starting xp and up the civ gold to see how that plays.
Might also increase the minimum number of civs on map.

Did you send any units to escort the civs?
There is a broad hint in dialogue that this might be a good idea, but I doubt you read that

Cheers!
-- Spannerbag

[white_haired_uncle]

Ok, I see the "elite" goes away once recruited. I really wouldn't worry about it unless you get others reporting confusion. I wasn't "fooled" by the icon, but I did have to check for the loyal trait a couple times before I was comfortable with it. FWIW, I'm not sure if I ever recruited any non-elite units at all. If I would have, it would have just been as fodder, but the price difference just didn't seem worth it (I'd have paid +50% for custom AMLAs and being able to pick traits, and possibly more though any more and I probably wouldn't recruit exclusively elite).

Spoiler:

I sent most of my forces with the civs (it's kind of the whole purpose of the scenario, right?). I left a token force to fight the wolves (largely because I wanted to check out the grypon nest -- which turned out to be falcons which I found to be completely worthless) and protect the elf leader. A few scouts were used to keep any battles away from the civs. Almost all my dwarves were quick (and intelligent whenever possible). The caravan went with the main force just to keep it safe.

[Sandsculpture]

It seems like I download the campaign several hours before it disappeared

Great campaign with plenty of events, mechanism

Spoiler:

and tons of XP to train the elite

play in 1.16.9 normal difficulty

S04: 6 L2 ghosts quickly kill the west leader before I can reach him. Is that intended?
S08: deal with one type of enemy. maybe shorter?
S11/S12: Greybeam says "A Sylph located the gate on the western tip of the island", and she appeared in S12‘s dialog. But I don't get a free sylph
Also, maybe add a scenario hint about the bomb only fails in deep water?

[Spannerbag]

It seems like I download the campaign several hours before it disappeared

Great campaign with plenty of events, mechanism

Spoiler:

and tons of XP to train the elite

play in 1.16.9 normal difficulty
LSB.png

S04: 6 L2 ghosts quickly kill the west leader before I can reach him. Is that intended?
S08: deal with one type of enemy. maybe shorter?
S11/S12: Greybeam says "A Sylph located the gate on the western tip of the island", and she appeared in S12‘s dialog. But I don't get a free sylph
Also, maybe add a scenario hint about the bomb only fails in deep water?

Thanks for the feedback, much appreciated.
S04: yes, the scenario can be very random and that outcome is not unusual.
S08: There are two possible scenarios (08a and 08b), could you clarify which one you played please?
S11/S12: Fair point
Re. deep water... uh, I thought that's done?
I'm replaying through and unbreaking the stuff I broke en route plus adding a few tweaks here and there based on feedback.
I haven't got that far yet but there is this bit of dialogue in (my version of) S12:

Code: Select all

    [message]
      speaker=Cobblenog
      message=_"Once ye've set yer bomb don't hang around!   Get back tae the boat quick as ye can!
Remember: dinnae wade the shallows just before high tide!
If yer caught in deep water ye'll ruin yer bomb - and likely drown!"
    [/message]

Not sure when I'll upload the new v16 version, but am currently just re-testing scenario 9 after a couple of fixes.

Thanks again for the feedback, very helpful.

Cheers!
-- Spannerbag

[Sandsculpture]

S08: There are two possible scenarios (08a and 08b), could you clarify which one you played please?

There are 2 scenarios where we fight one type of enemy(S5, S8b). maybe they can be shorter because this campaign is rich enough in XP:D

I haven't got that far yet but there is this bit of dialogue in (my version of) S12:

I must have clicked too fast, I try to wait for the water to disappear until I read WML

Others:
S9: The primary aim can be finished without triggering the bats. Just fly a sylph and then the dwarf loremaster to block the 1-hex passage.
The sylph is close to amla when recalled, she can survive some turns without SL

[Spannerbag]

There are 2 scenarios where we fight one type of enemy(S5, S8b). maybe they can be shorter because this campaign is rich enough in XP:D

Fair point, FWIW here's my reasoning re. those scenarios, if you have suggestions I'd like to hear them!

Spoiler:

S5: This is the first dwarvish scenario so I didn't want it to be too tough but also wanted to enable sufficient xp garnering for new (0 level) recruits so that later recruits (especially historians) are recruited with decent starting xp.
S8b: This allows the player to levelup Thunderers big time, they rip through the spiders if placed on decent terrain. Also it should be easy enough to levelup Ignishn and give some xp to Amok if he has the axe - however whenever I tried that the RNG was unkind but other players have reported success.

I'm more than happy to consider anything that would improve player enjoyment or gameplay

Others:
S9: The primary aim can be finished without triggering the bats. Just fly a sylph and then the dwarf loremaster to block the 1-hex passage.
The sylph is close to amla when recalled, she can survive some turns without SL
LSB-1.png

Yeah, didn't fully think that through...
The bat logic is very very old was written when the map was a bit different and I forgot to update it
Alternatively I could leave the logic as it is and hint the player that there might be other enemies besides the yetis?
Would you rather always have the bats appear (easy enough to implement) or add a hint so the player has the option of not triggering the bats?
Personally I'd prefer to always trigger the bats but I'd appreciate your thoughts.

Oh, and while you're here there's another thing I'd appreciate your thoughts on.

Spoiler:

Scenario 13 (Dwarvish Departure) is, I feel, the weakest of the campaign and is basically too easy if the player allies with the orcs despite giving the undead a huge gold bonus in that case.
So, I'm currently redesigning the scenario so the orcs always band together against the player and the player does not get a choice, mainly because balancing the scenario for both cases is proving awkward.
Did you enjoy this scenario and did you ally with Haag or not?
Any thoughts on how to make this scenario more fun would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks again for the constructive feedback and comments, they are greatly appreciated!

Cheers!
-- Spannerbag

[Sandsculpture]

did you ally with Haag or not?

The first turns' fighting reminds me of the orc leader in S04b mentioned above so assume that kill Haag is easier than keep him alive.

For the bats: Just ok. As long as the ally L0s do not get too aggressive towards them.

[Straff]

Great campaign, really fun to play. Thank you for this great work.

[Spannerbag]

Great campaign, really fun to play. Thank you for this great work.

Thanks, much appreciated.
I've pulled the camapign for now as I managed to properly break it!
Taking this oportunity to re-work scenario 13 as I wasn't really happy with it.
Any thoughts/comments would be welcome.

Thanks again,
cheers!
-- Spannerbag

[Spannerbag]

Just a note to say I'm (still!) working on a revised v16 version.
Most of the issues mentioned previously are (hopefully) fixed and tested (ish).
I've also fixed/removed (on v16) all the stuff I broke by mixing up the v16 and v17 code versions.
Currently testing/balancing a redesigned scenario 13 with a completely new map, changed dialogue and somewhat revised logic/narrative.
Hopefully it'll be more fun to play as the previous version was too easy if the player made the sane choice.

Sadly I don't have a lot of free time right now so am working on this as and when.
Earliest release probably late this weekend (Sunday Feb. 11th 2024) but can't promise.

Will then do a straight port v16 -> v17 and maybe add v17 specific stuff afterwards (achievements etc.) depending on feedback/suggestions.

Cheers!
-- Spannerbag

[Spannerbag]

The latest version (1.2.0) is available on the add-on server.
There are two annoying interface glitches with scenario 13 that I haven't been able to fix (yet).

• The last [replace_map] (almost identical code in scenario 08a_seacaves works fine?)
• Haag's "death" animation.

When I get chance will port to v1.17 and see if the issues persist there.
For those who played the earlier version, the only major change is scenario 13.

Also I have not thoroughly tested everything but hopefully there's nothing major broken this time...

Enjoy!
Cheers!
-- Spannerbag