Scenario Review: SotBE 17 - Human Horde

Feedback for the mainline campaign Son of the Black Eye.

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SBak
Posts: 78
Joined: October 8th, 2011, 1:36 am

Re: Scenario Review: SotBE 17 - Human Horde

Post by SBak »

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
Challenging (easiest) 1.8.5 and 1.10.5

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

4 - there's a lot of enemies but I find the Earl oscillates between the two main Loyalist strategies (using the Spearman/Bowman lines and the Heavy Infantry/Mage lines) which blunts any offensive impact the enemy could have against my forces.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Not very - what does 'hold out' mean here exactly? Against what?

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

Interesting enough.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Working out how to achieve what I understood to be the scenario objectives. I recruit my veterans in the central keep expecting some onslaught against which I was supposed to 'hold out' against. I saw Heavy Infantry positioned in the walls with Cavalrymen and anticipated a Heavy Infantry/Mage offensive so recalled Crossbowmen/Slurbows and Warriors/Warlords to defend the southern most wall (thinking the onslaught would begin at dawn).

However when I saw the Earl recruiting and recalling Longbowmen and Swordsmen I was confused further so started to recall Slayers and Pillagers and Trolls. When the enemy engaged my allies with two offensive strategies I decided to lend support from dusk and sent my Slayers and Pillagers ahead of the other units adopting a strategy of attack is the best form of defence.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
9 - it felt good to be able to play Orcs and Trolls well enough to win convincingly aided by strong allies. The inconsistency of my units was buffeted by the diffuse Loyalist offensive. It was sad to lose Vrag, one of my veteran Pillagers and also Plonk the Slayer and the Saurians did their bit too.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
None I can think of.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
Losing Kapou'e in the thick of the action.
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Maiklas3000
Posts: 532
Joined: June 23rd, 2010, 10:43 am

Re: Scenario Review: SotBE 17 - Human Horde

Post by Maiklas3000 »

(1) Level, version, gold? Nightmare, 1.11.13, 355 starting gold.
(2) Difficult? (1-10) 9.5, I assume it has been revised after the previous reviews.
(3) Clear? Clear.
(4) Dialog? There is a run-on sentence.
(5) Challenges? Overwhelming enemy, suicidal allied leaders.
(6) Fun? (1-10) 8.
(7) Changes? As others have suggested, make the allied leaders passive, either always or just if you select defensive strategy for your allies.
(8) Restarts? 2 save-reloads to save Gruu early on, and 2 save-reloads to save the western allied leader.

Replay is attached. After several failed attempts to last until turn 25, my plan this time was to lure the enemy leader out of his keep and kill him. My plan failed. I only once got a unit within the enemy leader's strike range, and my unit (Direwolf Rider) was killed without the enemy leader coming out. However, with the help of some save-reloads, I lasted all 25 turns this time. Nearly my whole roster was wiped out. Inarix and Jetto both died. It's interesting that lasting until the end of turns is a workable strategy, despite what some of the reviewers above said.

I found a strategy to help keep the allied leaders from committing suicide. Select an allied leader and look where he can move. Then use your units to cover all the hexes where he could move to attack the enemy. Maybe that's obvious and you've done it all along, but I only just now figured it out. :)

Edit: I found that the last scenario was impossible with minimum gold, so I replayed this one with an eye towards gold. I decided to not assassinate, instead getting lots of villages, taking over my western allied leader's keep, and then stopping my recruitment several turns before the end of turns.
Attachments
SotBE-The_Human_Attack_replay.gz
Later, better replay, more gold carryover.
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SotBE-The_Human_Attack_replay.gz
Original.
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podbelski
Posts: 151
Joined: June 7th, 2011, 8:35 pm

Re: Scenario Review: SotBE 17 - Human Horde

Post by podbelski »

1.11.15, medium difficulty

seems I'm done here, can't force myself into playing the last two maps. Hordes of lancers is not the thing I'm getting fun of fighting against

the sc17 might be ok for my taste if there were less lancers... the sc18 seems an overkill for me.

overall it's a great campaign, I enjoyed the majority of the maps. Thanks and GL to developers and supporters!
sine_nomine
Posts: 39
Joined: April 30th, 2016, 11:34 pm

Re: Scenario Review: SotBE 17 - Human Horde

Post by sine_nomine »

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
Nightmare 1.12.4

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
8.5
390 starting gold

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Clear

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Clear

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Tons of enemies.
I had a pretty solid recall list and was approaching the end of the campaign so I didn't mind the heavy losses that I suffered.
I basically just spammed units and threw them at the enemy (and held the castle terrain during the day).
By the way, I'm not sure if it's because I told them to be defensive, but the allied leaders didn't leave their keep to attack even when it was safe to do so. They're certainly not suicidal.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
6.5

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Nothing

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
I made two attempts to lure the enemy leader out of his keep, but he refused to move regardless of the bait I presented (this is good, it would be too easy if you could easily win in 6-7 turns). No restarts when aiming for the time limit.
Attachments
SotBE-The_Human_Attack_replay.gz
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LordWolfDan
Posts: 216
Joined: September 30th, 2018, 7:31 am

Re: Scenario Review: SotBE 17 - Human Horde

Post by LordWolfDan »

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?

- 1.14.5, Challenging

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

- 10

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

- Clear

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

- Good dialogue. Now that I'm back on Earl Lanbec'h and now that he has to die (which I didn't kill him), and the arrival of Howgarth III, I wonder what's with Shan Taum

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

- Those [censored] reinforcements!!!

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

- 5

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

- I get it that Earl is powerful and such, but can you at least give only ONE wave of reinforcements?!

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?

- I lost my mind on this one three times. Enough said
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max_torch
Inactive Developer
Posts: 414
Joined: July 31st, 2011, 5:54 pm

Re: Scenario Review: SotBE 17 - Human Horde

Post by max_torch »

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
Warlord(Nightmare), 1.14.17, 350 + 0 gold (minimum), no reloading turns

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
7

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Perfectly Clear

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
When Howgarth mentions Shan Taum's name, and what he did, Kapou'e says "That name sounds oddly familiar". This. Makes. No. Sense. You're telling me the guy you gave half the horde to, betrays you and your people by killing your shamans, a guy you spent spent an entire civil war with and marched to his city to try to kill him but he escapes, and just now you hear that he in some way killed or got your father killed, and spread lies about you and your father, and what comes out of your mouth is: "That name sounds oddly familiar". How can this guy be merely "familiar". Please let's change this immediately! It's well-established Kapou'e is more than very familiar with Shan Taum.

If anything goes, what comes out of Kapoue's mouth at this point should be a bunch of expletives! "That no good lying son of a turdlicker who I gave half the entire horde to! First he kills the shamans and divides the horde, now I find he's killed my father! I want to prolong his pain before he dies!" Something like this but even worse. It should be brutal since he has been shown to be brutal all campaign, torturing, and beheading, and slaughtering prisoners, and saying stuff like "No mercy! Smite, stab, slay!".
Spoiler:
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Hard hitting strong cavalry, shock troops, and fire mages, all coming together en masse in the same first wave.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
8

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
In my replay, I take all of my allies villages because I can do a better job of managing units than they do. This doesn't feel right, thematically. Here's what I recommend: Add a start of scenario dialog that asks the player if they want to take control of all villages in Dorest or give some to the control of Flartar and Albrock. If you take the first option all the villages are yours at the start. If you take the second option it's the same as the current status quo.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
Cant remember why I lost at first but it only took about two or three attempts to win.

I defended until Turn 25.
Attachments
SotBE-The Human Attack replay.gz
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mal_shubertal
Posts: 93
Joined: December 1st, 2018, 6:58 pm

Re: Scenario Review: SotBE 17 - Human Horde

Post by mal_shubertal »

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
1.16.6 Nightmare 365 starting gold
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
8
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
very
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
I liked it, although I agree with the above comment that Kapoue should have a more emphatically angry response to the big reveal of Shan Taum's long-term treachery. His character so far has been sort of 'clever/subtle when he has to be, but hot headed/reactive most of the time', so such a subdued/ironic response doesn't fit.
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
losing gruu/kapoue/too many high level units to massed lancers. Figuring out how to deal with the huge number of reinforcements/recruitment waves.
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
10
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
I actually really like this scenario! When I first saw how it was set up, I was all ready to complain that it was basically the same as Giving Some Back, and was therefore boring and redundant, but the repeated waves of reinforcements and the way that Lanbech also recruited in waves rather than just blowing through all his gold immediately made it a significantly different challenge. I also like that you have options for how to play it, either defensively or offensively. I ended up going with the all-in offensive strategy, recalling 10 Troll Warriors and 7 Slurbows and ending with 7 Troll Warriors dying but 341 carryover gold. I think this is a perfect place in the campaign for a scenario like this, so that players like me who have amassed a ridiculously deep recall list can 'trade' some superfluous lvl 3 units for a gold advantage in the last scenario, rather than showing up to the final scenario and having to leave a bunch of powerful units on the bench because you can't afford to recall them all.
The biggest change that would help here is to give you more control over your allies. As it is, they work with you pretty well if you decide to play super aggressively, but if you want to go for the defensive strategy you just have to watch them throw all their units away pointlessly. You could do this in various ways, like the ability to toggle into "aggressive/defensive AI" that I've seen in some other campaigns. But I think there are other interesting options that could represent Kapoue's unusual leadership ability over the usually unruly orcs. Like, you could give the player the ability to decide when your allies start recruiting, like saying, "don't fire until you see the whites of their eyes". You might also give the player the ability at the beginning of the scenario to modify what unit mix the allies will recruit. As it was, I played super aggressively and so when my ally recruited troll whelps they were frustratingly always BEHIND my lines, instead of out front taking charges like I would have preferred. It would be cool to give the player some control of this, so if they want to play defense they can tell the allies to recruit mostly whelps, and if they want to play offense they can tell the allies to recruit mostly wolves, etc.
(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
I had to restart a few times because I tried to play this too conservatively, either not recruiting enough lvl 3's or trying to retreat during the day and minimize my losses, both of which ended with me getting overwhelmed by the endless waves of reinforcements.
Attachments
SotBE-The Human Attack replay 20221221-132811.gz
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egallager
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Re: Scenario Review: SotBE 17 - Human Horde

Post by egallager »

mal_shubertal wrote: December 21st, 2022, 7:16 pm The biggest change that would help here is to give you more control over your allies. As it is, they work with you pretty well if you decide to play super aggressively, but if you want to go for the defensive strategy you just have to watch them throw all their units away pointlessly. You could do this in various ways, like the ability to toggle into "aggressive/defensive AI" that I've seen in some other campaigns.
So yeah, that's the "AI Controller" feature, which this campaign actually used to have here (and which my version maintains), but it's getting removed from mainline due to players finding it confusing and misunderstanding how it works...
mal_shubertal
Posts: 93
Joined: December 1st, 2018, 6:58 pm

Re: Scenario Review: SotBE 17 - Human Horde

Post by mal_shubertal »

Oh, that makes sense. I do remember that when I used that feature in the past it sometimes seemed to do nothing and I didn't quite get how it defined 'aggressive' or 'defensive'. I guess someday I will have to actually learn WML and figure out how to design a better solution, but for now I will just complain about it and be grateful for what I can get, lol.
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