A New Order.

Discussion and development of scenarios and campaigns for the game.

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Konrad2
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Re: A New Order.

Post by Konrad2 »

Lord-Knightmare wrote: April 23rd, 2021, 3:21 am I am a bit surprised that for an add-on which has been around this long, such "bugs" still exist...
Now that I am taking a look, some of the stats hardly make sense. Especially for the healers. :shock:
(do I get XP for healing? Because their damage is so low they can hardly expect any kill XP)
Honestly, I never considered it a bug, and thought it's intentional.

They are tanky af, and no, you don't get xp for healing.
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Lord-Knightmare
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Re: A New Order.

Post by Lord-Knightmare »

Honestly, I never considered it a bug, and thought it's intentional.
lvl 1 advancing to another level 1 makes no sense whatsoever. Anyway, doesn't matter anymore. Uninstalled.
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egallager
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Re: A New Order.

Post by egallager »

Lord-Knightmare wrote: April 23rd, 2021, 3:21 am Now that I am taking a look, some of the stats hardly make sense. Especially for the healers. :shock:
(do I get XP for healing? Because their damage is so low they can hardly expect any kill XP)
That's on purpose; units/akladians/readme.txt says:
Wiseman-Holyman-Wonderman are supposed to be very, VERY rare. It should be
extremely hard for players to advance Wiseman, hard enough so most players
will decide to forget about it.
...and a comment in units/akladians/Akladian_Wiseman.cfg says:
# Note: The Wiseman, Holyman, and Wonderman are all supposed to be VERY rare
# amongst Akladians. Advancing them to a higher level MUST be hard. I lowered
# their experience amount a lot, due to popular demand, but this may be changed
# in the future.
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Re: A New Order.

Post by egallager »

Konrad2 wrote: April 23rd, 2021, 6:28 am
Lord-Knightmare wrote: April 23rd, 2021, 3:21 am I am a bit surprised that for an add-on which has been around this long, such "bugs" still exist...
Now that I am taking a look, some of the stats hardly make sense. Especially for the healers. :shock:
(do I get XP for healing? Because their damage is so low they can hardly expect any kill XP)
Honestly, I never considered it a bug, and thought it's intentional.
I think it does count as a bug, just because of how it messes up the u.w.o. display, it's just one I don't know how to fix...
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Konrad2
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Re: A New Order.

Post by Konrad2 »

egallager wrote: April 23rd, 2021, 10:21 pm I think it does count as a bug, just because of how it messes up the u.w.o. display, it's just one I don't know how to fix...
Remove the Akladian Leader and make the Warrior advance to the lvl 2 version. Or make the Leader an advancement of the Clansman instead of the Warrior.
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Re: A New Order.

Post by egallager »

Konrad2 wrote: April 24th, 2021, 5:40 am
egallager wrote: April 23rd, 2021, 10:21 pm I think it does count as a bug, just because of how it messes up the u.w.o. display, it's just one I don't know how to fix...
Remove the Akladian Leader and make the Warrior advance to the lvl 2 version. Or make the Leader an advancement of the Clansman instead of the Warrior.
OK, it looks like some combination of those 2 is currently the leading solution; corresponding bug for this issue on GitHub is this one: https://github.com/nemaara/A_New_Order/issues/9
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Re: A New Order.

Post by egallager »

szopen wrote: November 18th, 2013, 11:12 am Hi there,

It seems that I won't have time to maintain ANO. It means that ANO is up for anyone to grab - if someone wants to takeover, just PM me and be patient (I may not answer immedietely)
Even if you can't maintain it yourself, can you at least come back here to answer questions occasionally for people wishing to make changes of their own? There have been some questions as to the original intent behind some of your design decisions recently that would be helpful to know the answers to when making further changes...
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Re: A New Order.

Post by szopen »

After reading an email from egallager I am, in fact, quite regularly lurking here. I've already answered your email about warrior->leader (maybe your email client filtered the message?). The main problem is that I might not remember some of my design decisions. Moreover, I feel the right to decide about technical details should belong to the current maintainers.

ANyways, if you have any questions, go ahead. I will try to do my best to answer them.
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Re: A New Order.

Post by egallager »

szopen wrote: May 4th, 2021, 8:30 am After reading an email from egallager I am, in fact, quite regularly lurking here. I've already answered your email about warrior->leader (maybe your email client filtered the message?). The main problem is that I might not remember some of my design decisions. Moreover, I feel the right to decide about technical details should belong to the current maintainers.

ANyways, if you have any questions, go ahead. I will try to do my best to answer them.
No, my email client didn't filter the message, I just thought it would be a better idea to have these discussions in public, whether that's here on the forums, on Discord or IRC, or on GitHub (even though you said you don't use that), so that people don't have to trust me when I say, "Well, I emailed szopen and he said..." when trying to explain something. Anyways, regarding the warrior->leader advancement path, I've opened this pull request to fix it:
https://github.com/nemaara/A_New_Order/pull/12
Anyways, as for further questions, one thing people have been wondering about is, what exactly are the units in the Akladian Homeguard line supposed to be wielding for weapons? It says "greatmace" but the art doesn't look like a mace, and there's mismatches between blade and impact damage types and sound effects... I opened the following issue about it: https://github.com/nemaara/A_New_Order/issues/11
Also, I was wondering if you could explain the weak stats on the Akladian healers (the Wiseman->Holyman->Wonderman line) for this thread? I mean, I think I get it, but some players didn't find my attempted explanations very convincing...
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Re: A New Order.

Post by szopen »

(1) I can't remember what Akladian homeguards wielded initially (swords or spears?), IIRC it was changed along the way to have more diversity in attacks, because someone complained Akladians are too bland. I cant remember even who changed them to have greatmace. I have no preference here and I suppose you should decide how to solve the issue of the discrepancy between art, sound and description.

(2) You got it right about healers. The thing is that their existence has to have justification in the "lore" and has to fit the overall Akladian ethnos description. Since Akladians are rather primitive, brutal and since they hate magic, since they do not respect wisdom much and most of them chose the career of the warrior, it would be inconsistent for them to have separate caste of magical warriors. Their is the way of the blade! OTOH, them having no healing units would be putting them at severe disadvantage vs other factions. Hence, the compromise: the healers. They should be rare, they should be hard to advance and less powerful than other healing/magical wesnoth units. In fact you could remove them and just leave the healing, but that would require rebalancing a whole lot of scenarios.

It just would make no sense for Akladian faction to have powerful magical units, as it would contradict their whole behind-the-scene story. It's like elves having necromancer units.
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Re: A New Order.

Post by egallager »

szopen wrote: May 9th, 2021, 7:22 am (2) You got it right about healers. The thing is that their existence has to have justification in the "lore" and has to fit the overall Akladian ethnos description. Since Akladians are rather primitive, brutal and since they hate magic, since they do not respect wisdom much and most of them chose the career of the warrior, it would be inconsistent for them to have separate caste of magical warriors. Their is the way of the blade! OTOH, them having no healing units would be putting them at severe disadvantage vs other factions. Hence, the compromise: the healers. They should be rare, they should be hard to advance and less powerful than other healing/magical wesnoth units. In fact you could remove them and just leave the healing, but that would require rebalancing a whole lot of scenarios.
So, if the issue is that Akladians need healing, but a healing unit doesn't make much sense for their race, then maybe adding more villages to the map would make sense? Although, since villages give extra gold, too, that'd require extra balancing around... maybe instead the oasis tiles could work? That could also fit with a redesign of some maps to fit the Dunefolk better, since I've felt it's kinda weird how they don't really get any sandy areas to call their home... I guess that's a leftover from when they used to be Aragwaithi?
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Lord-Knightmare
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Re: A New Order.

Post by Lord-Knightmare »

Although, since villages give extra gold, too, that'd require extra balancing around... maybe instead the oasis tiles could work?
add healing but no income custom terrain. Easy to do. Copy the "healing" spring from TSL if you need it...They would be way better than those waste-of-gold healers.
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Re: A New Order.

Post by szopen »

egallager wrote: May 19th, 2021, 9:45 pm
szopen wrote: May 9th, 2021, 7:22 am (2) You got it right about healers. The thing is that their existence has to have justification in the "lore" and has to fit the overall Akladian ethnos description. Since Akladians are rather primitive, brutal and since they hate magic, since they do not respect wisdom much and most of them chose the career of the warrior, it would be inconsistent for them to have separate caste of magical warriors. Their is the way of the blade! OTOH, them having no healing units would be putting them at severe disadvantage vs other factions. Hence, the compromise: the healers. They should be rare, they should be hard to advance and less powerful than other healing/magical wesnoth units. In fact you could remove them and just leave the healing, but that would require rebalancing a whole lot of scenarios.
So, if the issue is that Akladians need healing, but a healing unit doesn't make much sense for their race, then maybe adding more villages to the map would make sense? Although, since villages give extra gold, too, that'd require extra balancing around... maybe instead the oasis tiles could work? That could also fit with a redesign of some maps to fit the Dunefolk better, since I've felt it's kinda weird how they don't really get any sandy areas to call their home... I guess that's a leftover from when they used to be Aragwaithi?
Yes, they were Aragwaithi at the beginning, changing them into another faction was not my idea.

However note that AI was actually using wondermen for akladians to kill off your akladians. That was very irritating, not quite consistent with lore but OTOH was making battles more interesting. I have no opinion on whether new terrain would actually fix things. You could actually made them impossible to recruit, possibly only getting them (as loyal) from some places, or giving them to enemy factions. There are a lot of options here.
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Re: A New Order.

Post by egallager »

szopen wrote: May 23rd, 2021, 5:06 pm However note that AI was actually using wondermen for akladians to kill off your akladians. That was very irritating, not quite consistent with lore but OTOH was making battles more interesting.
Oh yeah I ran into this, too, which is why I started using the {LIMIT_CONTEMPORANEOUS_RECRUITS} macro on them when enemy sides are able to recruit them
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HenryY2020
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Re: A New Order.

Post by HenryY2020 »

Is it just me or is A New Order basically the sequel to Soldier of Wesnoth?
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