Scenario Review: THoT 5 - Invaders

Feedback for the mainline campaign The Hammer of Thursagan.

Moderator: Forum Moderators

BroodKiller
Posts: 30
Joined: August 12th, 2008, 9:24 pm

Re: Scenario Review: THoT 5 - Invaders

Post by BroodKiller »

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?
Normal, 1.8.5

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
7. The jump in difficulty is HUGE, as compared to previous scenarios, but still perfectly doable. I had a keep of lvl2's and recruited only two lvl1 units as meatshields because of low gold, and I still finished it. After grabbing 2 villages I holed up near the center of the map. Holding the line against all 3 at the same time was a tad difficult, but I split my forces, so it wasn't all that bad. I did suffer some serious losses, including all my thunderguards, owing to the enemy hordes, some erroneous tactical decisions (dwarves+forest=fail) and the RNG (4 missed thunderguard shots in a row) but I ended up with 3 Lords (including Aiglondur), 2 Sentinels and Angarthing at lvl3, which isn't totally bad either.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Crystal.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Good.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
The sheer amount of enemy forces.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
8. Bandits make a great diversion and split up enemies so you don't have to fight the all at once, I really liked it.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Like it was already said, the eastern and southern orcs could be slightly weaker (only slightly), even at the cost of the northern one being made a bit stronger. Also, the ruined castle in the middle of the map could have some extra interesting bit to itself (spawn ghosts?)

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
Nope, although I consider replaying it, for better units and gold.

It is by no means unwinnable, if you have about 1 keep of lvl2's, which you can easily have after the previous xp farming maps.
Attachments
THoT-Invaders_replay.gz
(49.7 KiB) Downloaded 832 times
Clean...Simple...Devious...I like it
BubbleScreen
Posts: 43
Joined: January 24th, 2010, 6:19 pm

Re: Scenario Review: THoT 5 - Invaders

Post by BubbleScreen »

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?
Medium, 1.8.5

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario?
7 - huge difficulty increase!

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Kill them!

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Foreshadowing is pretty good. But why are the villagers/bandits hiding out in their houses? We need an explanation. And we don't need orcs announcing that the villagers are attacking every single time. We could use some lines from the villagers/bandits.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Defeating a larger foe by bringing all of my force to bear on different parts of the enemy's force.
I crossed the river without trouble; the lower two enemies were focused on taking villages and then oops, got to kill the villagers. I picked off most of the northern enemy's troops pretty quickly, but the lack of villages meant my troops were hurting.
I had to defeat the northern enemy a little faster than I would have liked, but I felt it was necessary because southern troops were heading my way. But then the southerners either got stuck in the river or got strung out, so I steamrolled them.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
7 - I'll second turin's comments about the villager spawns making for an odd play style. AI vs AI is always weird, but the villagers mostly did their job. A very creative scenario, which demands a very different play style than usual, though you do feel shoehorned into one obvious strategy.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
See above dialogue suggestions. Also maybe make the spawns less random

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
No, but it was a close shave in taking out the northern leader.
Kewltist
Posts: 27
Joined: September 17th, 2010, 10:10 am

Re: Scenario Review: THoT 5 - Invaders

Post by Kewltist »

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?
Steelclad, 1.9.4

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario?
6 - much, much harder than previous ones but their difficulty made me expect such a thing to happen .)
Villagers helped A LOT
By the time orkz were done, my dorfs came close enough to finish them off

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Very clear, I was at first scared of 3 warlords and their hordes but then I noticed the villagers .)

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
As it's been said before - more lines on capturing villages/killing warlords would be kewl ^_^

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
It's my first campaign that I play without any reloads (only scenario resets) and I found this chapter simply perfect for learning .D
I didn't have any

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
8 - It's my favourite of the campaign .) Wonderfully balanced

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Moar dialogue >3
Other than that it's fine!

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
Telling my wounded Annalist to charge 3 crossbowmen XD Harsh lesson
I've lost several dewds to the northern leader too.
podbelski
Posts: 151
Joined: June 7th, 2011, 8:35 pm

Re: Scenario Review: THoT 5 - Invaders

Post by podbelski »

Played it on Hard difficulty, BfW 1.9.6. UNBEATABLE IMO.

Are you guys serious?! How the hell I'm supposed to beat >1000gp orcs with starting 150? Is it some kind of a joke?

Restarted twice for now, I just don't understand what can theoretically be done to win here. By turn 5, Orcs almost finish off all the bandits, having 1-2 units lost, and a few crippled. Overall it looks like my 10 dwarfs oppose about 50-men 2nd level army, which arrive by turn 6 to beat my ass in a few turns.

If there is a chance that after restarting multiple times I'll get "favorable" bandits layout, and somehow manage to win, then how does this differ from constantly reloading for better luck in battles?

Seriously, either show a replay how to do it w/o much luck, or cut down orcs' money by 30%. Guess I have to patch this myself if I want to see other maps.
User avatar
Crendgrim
Moderator Emeritus
Posts: 1328
Joined: October 15th, 2010, 10:39 am
Location: Germany

Re: Scenario Review: THoT 5 - Invaders

Post by Crendgrim »

podbelski:
I didn't watch the replay on my own, but Maiklas3000 is trying to beat all campaigns on the hardest difficulty without save-reloading. Look at page 1 of this thread where he describes his tactic and post a replay: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php ... 78#p444778


Crend
UMC Story Images — Story images for your campaign!
podbelski
Posts: 151
Joined: June 7th, 2011, 8:35 pm

Re: Scenario Review: THoT 5 - Invaders

Post by podbelski »

Well I've just finished it, with several reloads after making bad moves, and to assure critical kills (I'm a noob). Also, I started with 7 level 1 and 4 level 2 units, now I'm sure I've made not the best choice.

So... having 150gp to begin with, I'd give it a "10" difficulty, comparing to everything I've seen before. If you somehow managed to get more gold than I did, and stronger/better starting units selection, probably it can be counted as "9"...

I could not withstand a defence near the keep, so this time I went straight to the north, and not flagged a single village on the main continent. This gave me a few turns more to finish off the green orc, who has a nice fixed income, so it's great to knock him out quickly.

I won't go into detailed review, better players already said everything. Just waaay too big of a difficulty jump, something should be changed.
podbelski
Posts: 151
Joined: June 7th, 2011, 8:35 pm

Re: Scenario Review: THoT 5 - Invaders

Post by podbelski »

Excuse me for posting too much here, just my final impressions.

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?
1.9.6 Hard, 181gp (I replayed prev scenario w/o spewing gold). No reloads on this final attempt.
Started with six level-2 units, five level-1 recalls (moderately experienced), and one recruit.
Lost 2 non-critical units, though was lucky not to lose one or two more.

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
This is the first time I had huge problems beating the map, so kinda want to give it a high difficulty score. But, when I managed to get more starting gold, selected better troops and had a solid strategic plan, I think it's probably "8".

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
- realizing that it's better to let the AI flag all the villages, combined with a decision to beat the green first
- whole period from first assault with greens till killing their leader and settling in his keep. Something I haven't experienced before - battling through overwhelming orc numbers without cheap cannon fodder. I couldn't afford significant losses, at the same time the only way to heal was to level up my troops.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
It's certainly interesting, "8".

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
I still beleive it should be a bit easier... I like suggestions made by earlier posters, though not sure which of them will work the best. Probably, set minimum starting gold to 180gp
Attachments
THoT-Invaders_replay.gz
(51.07 KiB) Downloaded 806 times
User avatar
PorkSol
Posts: 56
Joined: August 23rd, 2011, 2:10 am

Re: Scenario Review: THoT 5 - Invaders

Post by PorkSol »

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on? Hard, 1.9.9, no save load, 190 starting gold. However, I had to downgrade to 1.9.8 due to a issue in 1.9.9 with this scenario (among others): http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=34971
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10) 9. This is certainly one of the top 3 hardest scenarios I've played, although I haven't played the harder campaigns yet. I was massively outnumbered. It kind of feels like the designer expected me to have at least 100 more gold than I actually did.
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario? I have a complaint. When ever the AI captures a village they say "The Villagers are attacking us!" This causes the turn to pause until you click past the text. It seems excessive to have that quote for every village, after a certain number of villages perhaps it could stop.
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario? I was massively outnumbered by units of equal quality, I had no healers and the terrain was not particularly favorable: I had to march all the way across the map to find a suitable place to hold off the hordes.
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10) 7. Challenging scenarios are good and the gimmick of this map is good. But when you have a challenging map that you have to replay and there is a ton of AI vs AI action, it can get a bit tedious, especially with the AI constantly pausing the turn to say "The Villagers are attacking us!".
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun? see #4
(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
Many restarts.

I got wiped out when I tried to hold near my keep. The first time I tried going north and killing green, I ended up with just three units left and ran out of time.

Eventually I did succeed by going north, skipping the villages as recommended above and holding in the hills near green until the enemies slowed to a trickle, then killing the leaders. It took quite a bit of luck but I ended up with 9 recalls, 9 advancements, 0 losses, 42 kills (only two bandit kills), no reloads of course.
Attachments
THoT-Invaders_replay.gz
Hard, 1.9.9, no save load, no losses
(47.93 KiB) Downloaded 913 times
SBak
Posts: 78
Joined: October 8th, 2011, 1:36 am

Re: Scenario Review: THoT 5 - Invaders

Post by SBak »

Content Feedback wrote:(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?
Wesnoth 1.8.5 - Easy.
Content Feedback wrote:(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
I give this an 8, it's a marked difference in the level of difficulty which is something I notice from most campaigns I've tried. But this one is really steep.
Content Feedback wrote:(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Pretty clear.
Content Feedback wrote:(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
I think it was clear, but I was more focussed on trying to work out how to deal with the onslaught of three keeps of orcs on different levels (lvl1 and lvl2).
Content Feedback wrote:(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Developing any sort of strategy. I'm new to dwarves, only just getting used to the high risk factor of thunderers and thunderguards and knowing what to recruit and how to position it. So far I play this scenario by ear and wait and see what the orcs do and what comes out of the villages. The walkthrough suggests developing a defensive line in the hills/mountains/forest NE of your keep but second time around I figure it's best to keep moving but in what direction?

Herein lies the benefit of this scenario, because it forces you to keep moving and to seek out opportunities. If you move forward too quickly you get caught up in the ambushes and fighting which ensues, but if you hang back (as I did on the first time) you're giving the orcs valuable turns to recover. This is valuable for units which regenerate.

I was heading for the purple orcs but when they started to recover I decided to move north towards the fighting with the green orcs.
Content Feedback wrote:(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
I give this an 8 again, because it's daunting at the start but if you stick with it you get drawn in quite well. It's quite similar to the Siege of Elensefar in Heir to the Throne - speed and timing is a key issue - but unlike the Siege if you make a mistake early on you're not screwed.
Content Feedback wrote:(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
On Easy I think most players who aren't seasoned Wesnoth players have enough fun as it is coping with the steep incline in difficulty.
Content Feedback wrote:(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
Yes. First time round I had my units (one keep of my levelled units) recovering by the derelict castle in the centre of the map with Aiglondur as a Steelclad about to level up but with only 4 HP (having dealt with an orcish warrior who escaped another thunderguard) and they had seen off three orcish warriors (purple) and an orcish crossbowman (blue). Next turn this lvl2 wolf rider with only a few HP makes a beeline for Aiglondur together with an orcish archer. The orcish archer heads for a village and is ambushed. Then this footpad appears and kills the wolf rider, saving Aiglondur. Next turn the footpad comes back and kills Aiglondur.
User avatar
taptap
Posts: 980
Joined: October 6th, 2011, 5:42 pm

Re: Scenario Review: THoT 5 - Invaders

Post by taptap »

Lord (Challenging), 1.9.13. I had earlier tried this campaign (the first one I tried at highest difficulty) but utterly failed in many tries in Drakes and Mages. Back then the reason was this scenario, because I only managed to survive with fighter types in the southwest, which brought me many dwarf lords, but no good variety in the army. I believe the key is not to rely too heavily on veterans here, as you will need the hp-reset from levelling up. Even recalling some L1 with some XP helps too. The more or less severely injured L2 orcs coming one by one to you when you go north, forget about villages for the time being, are great to level units up. Focussed on getting to the high ground in the middle of the upper side (hills with village), not overcommitting with units from south too early and keeping my army balanced. This time including several guardsmen and thunderer types.

Because of the bandits the map is practically much larger than it looks, when you keep away from the southern orcs for the time being and stay close enough together that the newly spawned bandits prefer them as a target it will take them ages to come close to you (in more significant numbers at least). Pretty much fun (8), but not so hard anymore when you know how to play it (7).

If the AI would manage to use backstab more efficiently it would be a nice touch.
I am a Saurian Skirmisher: I'm a real pest, especially at night.
User avatar
Ninjuri
Posts: 167
Joined: April 28th, 2012, 2:59 am
Location: California

Re: Scenario Review: THoT 5 - Invaders

Post by Ninjuri »

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?
Normal 1.10.2
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
6
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
100%
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
I liked how one of the orc's courage came into question and the other one scolded him for letting it show. It draws similarities to some cultures in the real world.
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Deciding how to split my forces when going after the two lower orcs after i had taken the abandoned castle over.
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
8
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Idk it was pretty crazy. I liked how it was a massive brawl, there was constant fighting all over the map, bandits vs. dwarves, orcs vs. bandits, dwarves vs orcs. No matter where you were, there was something going on. It definitely was a bit of a wake-up scenario though, this made it even better though. It was a chance to test my metal against some real enemies.
(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
One time my gryphon got killed but that was only a 1 turn setback which was easily fixed.
Fate is against me.
Giraffemonster
Posts: 37
Joined: January 7th, 2011, 9:41 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Scenario Review: THoT 5 - Invaders

Post by Giraffemonster »

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?
Played on Steelclad (Normal), 1.10.3 from SVN

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
6. I'd have to agree, that there is a huge jump in difficulty. It's also very intimidating to see a collective of around 750 gold compared to your <200, even with the outlaws and stuff.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Clear, kill the orc leaders.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
I did like the blue orc leader saying that orcs don't flee from battle. That was pretty nice. The "There are outlaws in this village!" gets a bit old after a while. Also, "But, given a choice, we fight the weaker foe first" sounds pretty awkward, especially coming from an orc.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Dealing with a huge horde of orcs. The first time, I went east into the hills, and got crushed since the few bandits didn't really do as much as I hoped. The next time, I went north to get the green leader first, and they were more spread out. Didn't seem like it would help much at first, but it did a ton.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
8. Perhaps the most fun scenario I've done in this campaign so far. Watching all the chaos around the map is very entertaining.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Reword that last line in the dialogue before the scenario starts to make it less awkward. Also, scrap the "There are outlaws" line after it's been said a couple times.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
See above. I died the first time heading east.

(9) If you know a bit of the Wesnoth Markup Language - do you think that the WML of this scenario is clear and well commented? If not which part would you like to be documented better?
N/A

Replay attached since this was a "larger" scenario.
Attachments
THoT-Invaders_replay.gz
(43.1 KiB) Downloaded 762 times
TheCripple
Posts: 103
Joined: March 19th, 2011, 3:30 am

Re: Scenario Review: THoT 5 - Invaders

Post by TheCripple »

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?
Normal
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
7. It was a hard level, and took two tries.
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Completely clear.
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
It was clear, and it served its purpose.
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
The first time, I didn't take the bandits into account as well as I should have and was horribly slaughtered as a result. That was easily learned from.
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
8. This was an incredibly fun scenario, that naturally fit in several parts (rushing the north, holding the river while wiping out the green orcs alone, then heading back south after wiping the purple and blue forces defensively with the river, while letting the orcs fight all of the bandits).
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
This scenario was fine, it doesn't need to be changed.
(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
Getting hit by bandits when trying a conventional expansion strategy forced a restart, but that was due to using a bad strategy.
(9) If you know a bit of the Wesnoth Markup Language - do you think that the WML of this scenario is clear and well commented? If not which part would you like to be documented better?
N/A
roidanton
Posts: 90
Joined: September 7th, 2012, 10:41 pm

Re: Scenario Review: THoT 5 - Invaders

Post by roidanton »

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?
1.10.4, Windows. Hard.
I previously also played this on my iPad (also on Hard difficulty) and my gut feeling is that the iPad version is a lot easier - but it's also possible that the bandits simply got lucky. I quit the campaign shortly after this scenario, now tried again from the start on Windows.
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
It depends ...
11 (unbeatable) if you follow the walkthrough (going east).
6 if you look at the map and try to find smart alternatives (see below).
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Kill all the bad guys, very clear.
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
It's really cool. However, these constant messages about attacking villages get really annoying, seeing them a few times is really nice, but please not every single time the AI flags a new village.
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Well, basically trying to find a strategy that works. I played this at least 20 times, trying different things.

Going east and then building a defense line on any of these mountain blocks in the middle just doesn't work. There simply isn't enough space to properly rotate your troops and the frontline is taking way too much damage.

I also tried to simply make a run for it at the southern border, ie. try to get to the southern leader before the main force from the north arrives - doesn't work, dwarfs are just too slow for that.

The only working strategy that I could come up with is not to flag a single village and run straight up north, then head east along the north shore of the river. But careful, you'll run into a bunch of orcish assassins and there are no villages within range where you could heal. I recalled all my veterans for this scenario, only had 4 of them anyways - and they all died in the battle. But I also leveled most of my new recruits, some of them even to lvl 3.

If you succeed in killing the assassins and deal with the few bandits, then it's getting really easy. Simply hold the river bank and have fun killing swimming orcs. After the main wave is over (this happened on turn 18 for me, and I had plenty of time left at the end), hold your position for a few turns - most of the few remaning orcs which are scattered all over the map will actually come to you to commit suicide, so don't move :lol2:

A Dwarfish Lord and your leader with the "slow" attack are enough to take down the enemy leader if both are lvl 3 and have full health (it takes two turns to kill, but you'll survive his counter-attack with full health). I only had 7 units left when I finished this, but had to kill all three enemy leaders with just my two leaders and a dwarfish lord - the other units were too severely wounded.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
Very frustrating until I realized how it works, but then it's really cool.

Oh, btw. the sound is much cooler in the Windows version and I also really like the new features that are now available on the iPad (for instance plan mode and damage calculations).

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Definitely limit the "the villages attack us" messages to at most 3 per scenario !

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
A single event ? I got totally crushed and run over like 20 times in a row until I realized that going east is not an option.

And with my working north-east approach, I also had to restart a few times - sending fresh recruits ahead on that path isn't an option either. You really need units that can take out an orcish assassin with a single hit while using a weapon you can't get poisoned with. And if you were too low on gold to afford any canon fodder, then you may actually lose a lvl 3 unit like I did.
Rubric
Posts: 13
Joined: December 31st, 2012, 4:31 am

Re: Scenario Review: THoT 5 - Invaders

Post by Rubric »

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?
Hard a couple of times, and then Medium.
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
Really damn hard on Hard setting. Like, impossible even. It caused me to restart the whole campaign on Medium difficulty. I only had enough money for an army of around 12 units, with hardly any Level 2's.

I went for the Ruined Castle on my first play, mistakenly thinking it would be something useful. Then I went around to the north on the second play and actually took out the first leader, but at that point I only had 4 units left, and never made it to the 2nd leader.

The bandits were useless. In one game, they killed a total of one orc. In the other, they managed to kill 3 orcs.

After starting over on Medium, I got to this level with enough money for an army of about 16. I also had 5 or 6 units leveled, or about to level. It was still really hard, but much more fun. The bandits were again useless, but we held out in the hills to the north until the enemy basically ran out of orcs. Then I swept down and took out the leaders with plenty of time left.
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Fine, but the "Ruined Castle" is misleading. I'm relatively new to the game, so when I see text on a particular location, it tells me that it's important. Given how crazy-hard the scenario was at first, I assumed that I was supposed to go to the castle to get some kind of reinforcements or something. My mistake, yes, but hopefully you can see how the text on the map made it confusing. To be honest, I still don't really understand why it's there. Am I supposed to recruit from there?

Anyway, I really enjoyed the scenario once I restarted on Medium. On Hard, not so much.

One suggestion for possible change (for the campaign as a whole): give the player some advance warning that a really hard scenario is coming up. I stupidly over-recruited and under-advanced on the early scenarios, and it left me no way to win when I got to this one. I realize it's my fault (compounded by the fact that I'm new to the game), but a little tip somewhere wouldn't hurt.
Post Reply